A God That Makes Sense?

@neologist,

Quote:

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"One danger in the worship of one's brain. It's a god with a mind of its own . . . ."

is a reference to those who are so enamored with their own intelligence, they cannot abide the simple. It's a failure to understand that what is profound may not necessarily be complex.

I'm still not sure what accounts for why the default state of most intellectuals seems to be atheism or an agnosticism that rules out ever knowing, but it's probably not just ego.

Most of them value intellectual honesty enough to overcome pure ego. They also like having a mental model of the world that is consistent and free of contradictions. These are all positive values but the trap is that science provides a ready made model that fits that description in terms of the physical reality around us. It works so well that once you grasp it you are reluctant to introduce anything that threatens that orderly picture. The only problem is that it does not answer the inner drive to find meaning in life. That drive does not go away even after you have intellectually accepted that the end of this life is the end of you.

I think that is why open spiritual/religious forums almost always have more atheists than theists participating. It's not a bad thing to double check your decision even after you have settled on it. Otherwise, why go there? If this were not the case it would be like me (a total 'atheist' when it comes to spectator sports) going to a sports thread and trying to talk them out of their enthusiasm for sports. That just doesn't happen. Unlike the need for meaning, there is no inborn drive to double check one's feeling about sports.

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@Leadfoot,

One word I hear often about the conclusions of science is "falsifiability". Essentially, even the most rigorously researched "laws" are subject to refinement as a result of advanced technique.

I look at my faith with the same eye. As a door knocking, bible thumping, card carrying JW, many folks here do not realize I temper my beliefs with a nanobyte of caution. Not only have I seen the Watchtower adjust their thinking (We used to revere the cross back in the day), but I have had to adjust my own thinking for things I forgot or had not considered. Frank would aver that makes me an agnostic Laughing

I dunno, since my level of commitment is sufficient for me to dedicate my life to it

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

I'm still not sure what accounts for why the default state of most intellectuals seems to be atheism or an agnosticism that rules out ever knowing, but it's probably not just ego.

It is healthy for thinking individuals to be skeptical when someone tells them that "there is an invisible man in the clouds watching the things that you do and you better give me MONEY or he will get mad at you." Skepticism isn't mere ego, it's an acceptance of the fact that many people present false information in order to trick others; skepticism helps poke holes in these in the search for the truth.
However the real truth is that most atheists have no deep understanding of science so they are taking scientific explanations on faith as well. In effect, it is the official state religion. However current science breaks down at certain points, and the formation of the universe is a glaring example. The universe folding down to a singularity, all matter, all energy, in a zero-dimensional point that is beyond physics, it violates all rules of science, yet that is what the evidence points to. The truly honest scientist would have to admit that from all of the evidence:
1) This is beyond our understanding
2) It was an all-powerful force
3) It was beyond time, space, physics, chemistry, and everything we know of measurability
EVEN if we accept the concept of "God" as being an imaginary one, that doesn't stop it from being a useful concept; for instance in Mathematics, we use the concept of imaginary numbers. The simple fact is that the current "scientific" accounts of the formation of the universe has all of the attributes of "God" whether imaginary or not, and none of the attributes of science.

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@Leadfoot,

This is a very good subject, and the question you ask is thought provoking. We can find the answer in the Bible. Since an all powerful and self contained creator would have no need for companionship, it would be safe to believe that Jehovah created mankind as an expression of his love—he wanted to share life and happiness with humans. Doubtless, God experienced great joy in fashioning physical creations of all kinds, so that man would be surrounded by beauty and plenty. Above all, humans were to have a meaningful relationship with their Creator, knowing him and communicating with him. They were created to live forever under perfect, peaceful conditions.—Genesis 3:8, 9; Psalm 37:11, 29.

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@anthony1312002,

Oh yeah, a loving god who authorizes slavery, the rape of slaves, dashing out the brains of the babies of enemies, killing all the enemy population, including women and children, killing adulterous women, killing homosexuals, killing unruly children . . .

Oh yeah, feel the love . . .

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@anthony1312002,

Quote:

Since an all powerful and self contained creator would have no need for companionship, it would be safe to believe that Jehovah created mankind as an expression of his love—he wanted to share life and happiness with humans.

I've heard this said many times and it always mystifies me. Why would a God that had no needs create anything? And how does one 'love' beings who do not yet exist? And isn't sharing life and happiness a whole lot like companionship?

Since the claim that God has no needs usually comes from religious sources, if you accept the bible as having any truth, just what would "Let us create man in our own image " mean if not having the same nature and needs as God?

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@Leadfoot,

Its much in the way a wealthy person will sometimes share what they have with others. They have no need to do it, but because they have a desire to give joy to others they do so. So it is with the Creator.

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@anthony1312002,

anthony1312002 wrote:

Its much in the way a wealthy person will sometimes share what they have with others. They have no need to do it, but because they have a desire to give joy to others they do so. So it is with the Creator.

That's the most depressing view of God I've ever heard. If you're taking philanthropy of the very wealthy as an allegory we're all doomed.

Quote:

In 2007, the top 20% wealthiest possessed 80% of all financial assets. In 2007 the richest 1% of the American population owned 34.6% of the country's total wealth, and the next 19% owned 50.5%. Thus, the top 20% of Americans owned 85% of the country's wealth and the bottom 80% of the population owned 15%. In 2011, financial inequality was greater than inequality in total wealth, with the top 1% of the population owning 42.7%, the next 19% of Americans owning 50.3%, and the bottom 80% owning 7%. However, after the Great Recession which started in 2007, the share of total wealth owned by the top 1% of the population grew from 34.6% to 37.1%, and that owned by the top 20% of Americans grew from 85% to 87.7%. The Great Recession also caused a drop of 36.1% in median household wealth but a drop of only 11.1% for the top 1%, further widening the gap between the top 1% and the bottom 99%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States

Not so much sharing with others, but gobbling up what's left.

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It is hilarious, in a sickening sort of way, to suggest that there is an omnipotent being who creates sentient, self-aware beings, whom he might deign to treat decently, maybe, if he's nothing better to occupy his time, every once in a while. Then the loony sh*ts try to tell us this vicious bitch is a loving god.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

It is hilarious, in a sickening sort of way, to suggest that there is an omnipotent being who creates sentient, self-aware beings, whom he might deign to treat decently, maybe, if he's nothing better to occupy his time, every once in a while. Then the loony sh*ts try to tell us this vicious bitch is a loving god.

I think that reflects only a Christian perspective - God Is Love. I thought the Old Testament God is different; I'm not sure. Perhaps, the Old Testament God was just a prototype Christian God? Which might make the pagan Gods very early renditions of the Old Testament God? Regardless Gregorian Chant is soothing. That can be seen as loving.

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@Foofie,

Shut up, Miller, you f*cking idiot.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

Shut up, Miller, you f*cking idiot.

A la Bartleby the Scrivner (Herman Melville), "I'd prefer not to."

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@Foofie,

Quote:

I think that reflects only a Christian perspective - God Is Love. I thought the Old Testament God is different; I'm not sure. Perhaps, the Old Testament God was just a prototype Christian God? Which might make the pagan Gods very early renditions of the Old Testament God? Regardless Gregorian Chant is soothing. That can be seen as loving.

A God that has moody days/centuries, gets alternately bitchy & homocidal then mellows out (after he's had a few tokes?) and plays nice as he hands out a few treats is not a God that makes sense to me and I could not love a God like that.

If the bible is right, God has tried a few different approaches with man and that would be expected if you are dealing with new beings with free will. Parents have to deal differently with kids as they grow up and go their own ways. That does not necessarily mean God changed at all.

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

Setanta wrote:

Shut up, Miller, you f*cking idiot.

A la Bartleby the Scrivner (Herman Melville), "I'd prefer not to."

Let us now pray to our God, the God of goodness and forgiveness and let there be peace for Foofie and Miller.

As far as those, who insist that Miller is an F-ing idiot, may the Lord cast these folks ( setanta et al.) into a sea of perpetual despair and agony.

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"zal di gut mal zeml" !

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Although I previously said why I think God created us, I realized I skipped a lot of steps in arriving at that conclusion. So I again visit the question of why God would bother creating us.

God is typically portrayed as an all powerful being with no weaknesses or needs. As long as you hold this concept in your mind I doubt anyone could get to know him. Consider for just a moment that this is completely wrong. I've said in the past that it is perfectly natural to assume that God is much like us only 'grown up' and without our self doubts. Yes, anyone able to create a universe and life is obviously powerful but power has its limits in logic and reason. If you artificially expand that power to infinity, it loses all meaning and eliminates any chance you have of comprehending God.

Imagine that you are God. You are able to create with just your thought and you have virtually unlimited time, matter and energy to work with. That could make for an interesting scenario but for one thing - Eternity. How do you avoid getting bored when you have an infinite amount of time on your hands?

This same thing is happening now on an 'earthly' scale. You can see it in the lives of people who have achieved everything they could ask for. Why do you think people like Robin Williams, Phillip K. Hoffman and so many others choose death at the moment when they have achieved everything they wanted? I think I found the real reason and it is not as simple as 'depression'. The reason they were depressed is because they lacked the one fundamental thing needed for happiness. That is:

Something to look forward to.

As soon as you reach the condition where you are bored with everything and no longer look forward to anything, you lose the will to live. This is the basic equation of life, for men as well as God.

People often insulate themselves from this truth by lowering their expectations. They see nothing beyond 70-90 years of this existence so they resign themselves to enjoying what there is of it. I know people who have lowered their expectations to the point where they are satisfied with nothing more than their next meal to look forward to. This strategy does work as long as you are content with 'the unexamined life' and don't contemplate too long on the futility of it all. It has nothing to do with economics either. After buying enough yachts, each one bigger than the last, you get bored with them too.

So picture yourself as God but alone and bored. You have done everything imaginable with your power and grown tired of all of it and you have eternity staring you in the face. Ultimately there is nothing more interesting than another independent being so you create your Son and he is a source of joy for eons of time but you share the same essence, the same history and memories. Eventually you know one another perfectly and as much as you like each other, there is nothing new to look forward too.

So you decide one day that you want more beings with free will in your world and you say "Let us make man in our own image".

I'm sure it is interesting watching us struggle as we grow up but I'm sure he is anxious to know us as mature adults. Even God needs something to look forward to.

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@Leadfoot,

You assume much

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@neologist,

Where is the line between assumption and Devine revelation?

If we ask God for a fish, will he give us a serpent?

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

How do you avoid getting bored when you have an infinite amount of time on your hands?

the bored God theory is an amusing one but consider my friend, Does time exist in an infinite loop? Suppose it does for a moment...
If God was around for an infinite period of time before his first creation, at what point in an infinite loop could an infinite mind become bored?
If God created the universe and everything within it out of boredom, then he must have been bored for an infinite time period before that, and if he was bored for an infinite time period, then it could not have been out of boredom that sparked creation, it must therefore have been something else, rendering his boredom irrelevant,
Of course, I am just speculating my friend, I am not that bright.

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@Smileyrius,

Smileyrius wrote:

Quote:
How do you avoid getting bored when you have an infinite amount of time on your hands?

the bored God theory is an amusing one but consider my friend, Does time exist in an infinite loop? Suppose it does for a moment...
If God was around for an infinite period of time before his first creation, at what point in an infinite loop could an infinite mind become bored?
If God created the universe and everything within it out of boredom, then he must have been bored for an infinite time period before that, and if he was bored for an infinite time period, then it could not have been out of boredom that sparked creation, it must therefore have been something else, rendering his boredom irrelevant,
Of course, I am just speculating my friend, I am not that bright.

If I were to be rewarded in an afterlife with a Heaven...and asked what I would prefer it to be...I'd choose what I am living right now.

This is Heaven for me. I really love it...even with all its warts.

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A God That Makes Sense?

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