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A God That Makes Sense?

Forums: Religion, Humor, Theology, Rabid Bat
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 11:04 am
@onevoice,
onevoice wrote:

Do not worry. When you choose to seek, you will find what you are looking for. Smile


Yeah. Especially people who seek gods.

They always seem to "find" 'em.

And the gods almost always confirm what the people want confirmed.

Wonder what that is all about?

neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 11:13 am
@Frank Apisa,
onevoice wrote:
Do not worry. When you choose to seek, you will find what you are looking for. Smile
Frank Apisa wrote:
Yeah. Especially people who seek gods.

They always seem to "find" 'em.

And the gods almost always confirm what the people want confirmed.

Wonder what that is all about?
Old African proverb (so I'm told)
"Never test the depth of a river with both feet."
Applies to one's theocratic outlook, also.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 11:24 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

onevoice wrote:
Do not worry. When you choose to seek, you will find what you are looking for. Smile
Frank Apisa wrote:
Yeah. Especially people who seek gods.

They always seem to "find" 'em.

And the gods almost always confirm what the people want confirmed.

Wonder what that is all about?
Old African proverb (so I'm told)
"Never test the depth of a river with both feet."
Applies to one's theocratic outlook, also.


I'm sure that made sense to you...and was not posted just to show you have a keyboard at your disposal.

Good.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 12:36 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Red mini syndrome. Look for a red mini and soon you'll start seeing them everywhere.
0 Replies
 
onevoice
 
  0  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 01:09 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
Old African proverb (so I'm told)
"Never test the depth of a river with both feet."
Applies to one's theocratic outlook, also.


Very Happy

Here's another song. Guaranteed to make you laugh. It is called "Pray for you." Be assured this is NOT my prayer for anyone... But I can't say the thoughts have never crossed my mind! Lol

https://youtu.be/AFJu8DCH_b0
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 02:27 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:



Quote:
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
"If God gave you life, any 'hard' evidence would have to be internal."


FBM asked:
Why?

Leadfoot answered:
Explained previously but the short version is:
True free will would not be possible with hard evidence.

Frank asked:
WHY????

Really? Nothing occurs to either of you? Seriously, I would like to know your thoughts after you read my answer.

Think about how it would affect your entire frame of reference if you knew with absolute certainty that there was a God observing you, possibly with the intent of making a life or death decision on your continued existence. Say that from time to time there were physical manifestations of his presence, voices from the sky or bona fide miracles performed in such a way that there was no denying his reality. Or something like the monolith found on the moon in "2001 A Space Odessey." Just examples, substitute whatever it is that would constitute proof to you. If such a thing we're here, do you really think it would not affect your decisions and thinking? Would you still feel free to crack jokes about delusional believers being 'saved' from reality?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 02:33 pm
@onevoice,
Here's one for you.

Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 02:34 pm
Note that 2001 was a work of fiction . . . just like your scripture.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 02:58 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Note that 2001 was a work of fiction . . .

Damn! That bastard Clark has deceived so many people . Thank you for setting me straight Set.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 03:03 pm
The screenplay was based on a Clarke short story entitled "The Sentinel," which you might find interesting. The novel was only worked up when Kubrick was making the motion picture. The short story is concise, and no longer than it needs to be. Kubrick, in the movie, took a very small ball and ran a long, long way with it.

You can read the short story by clicking here. Please not that this is a PDF file.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 03:19 pm
@Setanta,
Ah, tnx. I was just looking for a good read.

Have you read Asimov's "The Last Question"? Short, sweet, even more appropriate for the ID thread. Not that I'd use it as evidence, but I think it was his musings on the mystery of the Big Bang.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 03:53 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:

And the gods almost always confirm what the people want confirmed.

From my experience at least, that is so not true. I had a lot of expectations, including the main ones, that were turned completely upside down.

There are probably exceptions but if you find what you expected, it's probably a sure sign that what you found isn't 'it'.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 05:23 pm
@Setanta,
Good read.
I was struck by the passage below. I know we think we partially understand the mechanisms and origins inside the cell but my reaction when seeing them for the first time was the same as the narrator of Clarke's story: Totally alien technology. But being in ourselves, I figured the origin was more exotic than extraterrestrial. I wonder if Clarke was tempted to use 'meta-physical forces' instead of para-physical. Kubrick obviously did.

"They are meaningless. The mechanisms-if indeed they are mechanisms-of the pyramid belong to a technology that lies far beyond our horizon, perhaps to the technology of para-physical forces."
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 06:24 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:



Quote:
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
"If God gave you life, any 'hard' evidence would have to be internal."


FBM asked:
Why?

Leadfoot answered:
Explained previously but the short version is:
True free will would not be possible with hard evidence.

Frank asked:
WHY????

Really? Nothing occurs to either of you? Seriously, I would like to know your thoughts after you read my answer.

Think about how it would affect your entire frame of reference if you knew with absolute certainty that there was a God observing you, possibly with the intent of making a life or death decision on your continued existence. Say that from time to time there were physical manifestations of his presence, voices from the sky or bona fide miracles performed in such a way that there was no denying his reality. Or something like the monolith found on the moon in "2001 A Space Odessey." Just examples, substitute whatever it is that would constitute proof to you. If such a thing we're here, do you really think it would not affect your decisions and thinking? Would you still feel free to crack jokes about delusional believers being 'saved' from reality?


How on earth is a hypothetical "if you knew" a coherent answer to:

Quote:
True free will would not be possible with hard evidence.


Quote:
Why?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 06:28 pm
@FBM,
Quote:

Really? Nothing occurs to either of you? Seriously, I would like to know your thoughts after you read my answer.

Think about how it would affect your entire frame of reference if you knew with absolute certainty that there was a God observing you, possibly with the intent of making a life or death decision on your continued existence. Say that from time to time there were physical manifestations of his presence, voices from the sky or bona fide miracles performed in such a way that there was no denying his reality. Or something like the monolith found on the moon in "2001 A Space Odessey." Just examples, substitute whatever it is that would constitute proof to you. If such a thing we're here, do you really think it would not affect your decisions and thinking? Would you still feel free to crack jokes about delusional believers being 'saved' from reality?


How on earth is a hypothetical "if you knew" a coherent answer to:

Quote:
True free will would not be possible with hard evidence.


Quote:
Why?
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 06:30 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:

Really? Nothing occurs to either of you? Seriously, I would like to know your thoughts after you read my answer.

Think about how it would affect your entire frame of reference if you knew with absolute certainty that there was a God observing you, possibly with the intent of making a life or death decision on your continued existence. Say that from time to time there were physical manifestations of his presence, voices from the sky or bona fide miracles performed in such a way that there was no denying his reality. Or something like the monolith found on the moon in "2001 A Space Odessey." Just examples, substitute whatever it is that would constitute proof to you. If such a thing we're here, do you really think it would not affect your decisions and thinking? Would you still feel free to crack jokes about delusional believers being 'saved' from reality?


How on earth is a hypothetical "if you knew" a coherent answer to:

Quote:
True free will would not be possible with hard evidence.


Quote:
Why?



Well, I can read what I posted. Do you have a reply?
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 06:54 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
Really? Nothing occurs to either of you? Seriously, I would like to know your thoughts after you read my answer.

Think about how it would affect your entire frame of reference if you knew with absolute certainty that there was a God observing you, possibly with the intent of making a life or death decision on your continued existence. Say that from time to time there were physical manifestations of his presence, voices from the sky or bona fide miracles performed in such a way that there was no denying his reality. Or something like the monolith found on the moon in "2001 A Space Odessey." Just examples, substitute whatever it is that would constitute proof to you. If such a thing we're here, do you really think it would not affect your decisions and thinking? Would you still feel free to crack jokes about delusional believers being 'saved' from reality?


How on earth is a hypothetical "if you knew" a coherent answer to:

Quote:
True free will would not be possible with hard evidence.

Quote:
Why?


When I was in Vietnam and having conversations similar to this with people there, it got very confusing because in their language and culture they don't have the subjunctive mode which we use all the time. They are amazingly practical people who deal with whatever situation they are in and never worry about what could have been. That's why they fell to pieces as soon as the Americans pulled out. It would never occur to the average Vietnamese to wonder if another form of government would be better. They just make do with whatever the situation is.

Are you by any chance of South East Asian descent ?

The subjunctive mood is when you contemplate a situation that does not currently exist, it's the mode of thinking that you use when you ask yourself the question 'What if'.

I was asking you to imagine - What if you had absolute hard evidence that there was a God watching you and then I asked, could you feel totally free to make any choice you wanted if he was looking over your shoulder? Obviously if you had that proof, you would no longer have the option not to believe there was a God if nothing else.

I.e. Hard evidence of God would eliminate your complete free will.
onevoice
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 07:16 pm
@izzythepush,
I see. Wink
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 07:31 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Obviously if you had that proof, you would no longer have the option not to believe there was a God if nothing else.

I.e. Hard evidence of God would eliminate your complete free will.



This is still a hypothetical. Hypotheticals are built on the subjunctive mood. If there were "absolute hard evidence" of a god, there would still be plenty of people who would deny it. Look at how some denialists treat evolution, vaccines, the moon landings, the fact that the earth orbits the sun, the age of the universe, etc.

Furthermore, your premise rests on the assumption that we have free will, which is far from certain in the first place.

Your god hypothesis still does not make sense. You'll need more than hypotheticals about "if" there were such "absolute hard evidence." It's just as easy to make up hypotheticals about the opposing hypothesis. This is why speculative metaphysics goes nowhere, and why genuine evidence is needed.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Sep, 2015 07:51 pm
@FBM,
Quote:

there would still be plenty of people who would deny it. Look at how some denialists treat evolution, vaccines, the moon landings, the fact that the earth orbits the sun, the age of the universe, etc.

Free will is not group option. Free will applies only to an individual. I said it would eliminate your free will.
 

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