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A God That Makes Sense?

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 12:28 pm
@fresco,
No argument. There are no grounds for discussion with those who consider themselves no more than just another animal. If you are satisfied with that picture, OK. This discussion was intended for those who think they may be more than that.
timur
 
  2  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 12:34 pm
fresco wrote:
theist religions are one method of psychological insulation against the fear of "the void


I, ipso facto, assume you are not afraid of the void.

What else does atheism denote?
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 12:41 pm
@Leadfoot,
We are animals which use complex language which attempts to predict and control what we see as 'the world '. Obviously since such control is partially successful but ultimately limited, the myth of .'the Big Controller' is one natural outcome of anthropocentric cognition. Those who play the game of 'Man is special because he is made in the image of God' have simply got it the wrong way round.


fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 12:46 pm
@timur,
I (my conscious self) lost my fear of the void when I realized that "the self" emerges from it every time I awake from dreamless sleep.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 01:08 pm
@fresco,
Quote:

I (my conscious self) lost my fear of the void when I realized that "the self" emerges from it every time I awake from dreamless sleep.


Richard Dawkins does a great job of describing your position. If you are just a result of this incredible cosmic accident that gave you your existence, life is to be looked at like this awesome and short lived thing that must be enjoyed for its own sake. I get that, it's an appealing view. But he might be wrong. It might not be as short lived as he thinks.
0 Replies
 
timur
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 01:10 pm
@fresco,
I always wonder why such an inoffensive thing as void can be so frightening to a human being.

The very existence of "void" is a mystery to me.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 01:13 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
Those who play the game of 'Man is special because he is made in the image of God' have simply got it the wrong way round.


And you know this How?
Getting tired of simple assertion. It's just boring.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 01:20 pm
@timur,
Quote:

The very existence of "void" is a mystery to me.


I could easily understand a 'void'. 'Nothing' should logically be the default condition. It's the existence of 'something' that's the mystery to me. Why should there be anything? The universe has no plausible reason for existing without a cause.

The point of the thread is to posit a reason that makes sense.
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 01:25 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
...silly to say that the creator of a universe (and us) would be unable to cause the development of a human egg cell...
Only because Her creations are subject to the common-sense notion that She can do only what's possible
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 01:32 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
Only because Her creations are subject to the common-sense notion that She can do only what's possible


I assume you are implying that is not possible.

But even Steven Hawking says She can create a universe from NOTHING! Cripes! if She can do that, what's the big deal with causing an egg cell to develop? You are limiting Her to an absurd degree.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 01:45 pm
@Leadfoot,
Have you ever analysed what the verb "to know " means ?
It means to "to be able to predict ( or postdict) with confidence". All that atheists like me KNOW about are the endless varieties of conflicting theistic stories, the hypnotic word magic involved in the rituals, and the social conditioning and adhesive forces which propagate theistic behaviors. And this knowledge is easily explainable in terms of general psychological and sociological principles.
I have argued extensively on this forum that debates about the existence of God are futile, because 'existence' of ANYTHING is related to need, and not to some nebulous concept of independent ontological status. Thus 'gods exist' in that they satisfy the needs of theists. Atheists have no such need.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 02:30 pm
@fresco,
Quote:

I have argued extensively on this forum that debates about the existence of God are futile, because 'existence' of ANYTHING is related to need, and not to some nebulous concept of independent ontological status. Thus 'gods exist' in that they satisfy the needs of theists. Atheists have no such need.


Your post is self refuting unless you are implying that we don't really exist. There is absolutely no 'need' for us to exist. The universe could get along without us just fine.

But assuming that was just a typo and you didn't mean it, what 'need' in yourself is satisfied by declaring there is no God? Especially since you 'Know' the reasons for our delusions and that it is futile to try and dissuade us from them?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 02:33 pm
Fresco refuses to believe that anything exists independently of human cognition for political reasons. It is useless for you to attempt to reason with him.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 02:53 pm
Perhaps God has already left us a message.
Would we be willing to loook at it?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 03:22 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Perhaps God has already left us a message.
Would we be willing to loook at it?


If you mean the god who supposedly made the Earth; moon; sun; other planets, moons, and planetoids of the solar system; all the other 200+ billions of stars in our galaxy with their planet systems...and all the 200+ other galaxies that the god spread out over space so vast that light takes billions of years to traverse it...

...don't you think the god could leave us a message that is clear enough so that we don't have to search for it...or wonder if it actually is a message?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 03:39 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
Perhaps God has already left us a message.
Would we be willing to loook at it?


It is the modern philosopher Platinga's argument that the inborn need to seek a God IS that message. It's a pretty persuasive argument. In spite of all the science purporting to prove there is no need for a God to explain anything, people can't stay away from the question. That includes so called atheists. The need to not believe in a God is just a negative response to that urge to seek . But because the need will not go away, they require reassurance from time to time that they are not wrong in their rejection of it.

But no, the vast majority will not look at it closely enough to make a decision one way or another.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 03:53 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
...don't you think the god could leave us a message that is clear enough so that we don't have to search for it...or wonder if it actually is a message?


Attempting to posit a God that makes sense again:

Let's say you wanted to create beings with free will that you eventually planed to give powers equal to your own. Before you hand them a 'loaded gun' like that, wouldn't you want to make damn sure they could be trusted with it? To do that you might want to observe them without any coercion whatsoever. Even knowing for sure that you were watching would bias things too much. Better still if they don't know for sure you even exist.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 04:16 pm
@Leadfoot,
None of us exist as integrated self sufficient entities Think about that next time you find that committee of voices you call 'self' is having a debate, or asking the question 'now why did 'I' do that. Notice how the transient 'I' of the moment acts as function of contextual expediency.

Ah but all this takes courage to suspend our vested interest in the myth of 'self integrity'. It has nothing to do with 'politics' unless it mirrors the facile statements of politicians who might actually have us believe in their own integrity.

That 'fresco the atheist' has 'existence' relative to this thread. It has no permant function and is merely evoked by contexts in which it is moved to put 'believers' straight ! But how many of us are willing to do a bit of honest self observation ?

Think about it !





Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 04:34 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
@Leadfoot,
None of us exist as integrated self sufficient entities Think about that next time you find that committee of voices you call 'self' is having a debate, or asking the question 'now why did 'I' do that. Notice how the transient 'I' of the moment acts as function of contextual expediency.

Hmmm.. If I were interested in that I'd go to a philosophy thread. I have read the early philosophers who contemplated such things but they bored me to death with proving basics like "how do I know this chair I'm sitting on is real?" Or, "Am I just a brain in a jar imagining the world". I'm done with that.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2015 06:48 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
...don't you think the god could leave us a message that is clear enough so that we don't have to search for it...or wonder if it actually is a message?[/b]
But this is a heartfelt search - Proverbs 2:4, Matthew 6:33, Matthew 7:7. Not that it would be a chore. Acts 17:27
0 Replies
 
 

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