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Michael Moore, the Democratic assistant

 
 
Lightwizard
 
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Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 11:13 am
I had no idea there were that many Australians and Japanese living in Europe for you to be exposed to them. Fascinating. The incredibility comes from any meager polling of people that any one person could possibly do to reliquish any believable results. That includes Moore who even if it was meant to make a point in the context of the interview should have held his tongue or thought about the framing of his answer (gawd, we have a President who consistently does that or there would be no "F9/11"). We're just not all perfect now are we? Setanta's point that we shouldn't be going around policing the world if we have tainted, flawed and incomplete knowledge of other countries and peoples of the world is completely valid.
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Redheat
 
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Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 11:20 am
I'm sure ignorance has no territorial bounds and expands throughout the world.

There is the difference between those who are not informed due to lack of ability and those who have all the options avaible and STILL remain uninformed.

That's mostly Americans, they are intellectually lazy. When you have a large majority unable to find Iraq on a map theres a problem. When a HUGE BIG LARGE event like 9.11 happens with 24/7 coverage and a year later you buy a piece of bullshit which leads you to believe Saddam was behind 9.11, there's a problem.

Plus our media lacks severly in it's coverage of world events. Take a look at BBC for a week and then watch the US media stations. Watch all of them, and tell me they cover the world like European media does. We have isolated ourselves and Americans are by and large ignorant of world events. Ask someone on the street if they are familiar with Rwanda? Sri Leona? or any number of countries that have had political and social strife.

You don't need a passport or to travel to make yourself aware of the world, and Americans just choose to stay ignorant on this. They don't want to know what happens in their own country so why should they know what's going on any place else, right?

Now I know it's not PC to say Americans are stupid, but we are. NO, not all Americans are there are millions of informed smart people that strive each day to keep informed. However on a collective whole when the rest of the world by LARGE, HUGE, stupendeous margins could see the problems with our going into Iraq but we couldn't well....................nuff said.
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Cycloptichorn
 
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Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 11:20 am
I agree on the analysis of a lesser need for a passport for most Americans. I myself don't have one; after years of paying for college (which is now blissfully over) I really don't have the money to jaunt off to Europe, and I don't need one for our continental neighbors.

Nevertheless, I have found the lack of world knowledge held by my fellow Americans to be simply astounding. It surprises me not that people cannot identify foreign countries on a map; we are so insular as a nation, I worry that we lose touch with the overall world community as a result of our geographical isolation.

Cycloptichorn
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 11:29 am
I don't know where that 92% statistic came from but it would be a good question to ask Moore's fact finders. Then again, I don't trust single journalistic sources to be accurate. I haven't researched whether or not Moore confirms any of the interview with the Mirror.
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Dartagnan
 
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Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 11:49 am
Not having a passport doesn't justify ignorance about other countries. I never travelled to Europe until I was 30, but I learned (via school and through my own reading) a fair amount about the rest of the world.

And I wasn't particularly engaged in the subject. It just seemed that knowledge about the world was part of being an intelligent US citizen. That standard, I suspect, is a quaint relic of the past. And that, I suspect, is what Moore is angry about.
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 12:02 pm
It isn't reasonable to focus on that one facet of learning about what is going on in the world, about it's peoples and about history. The American public can go onto Discovery, PBS, History Channel (if they could get off that military history kick they are on) and others, not that I would ever say that takes the place of reading. It should encourage reading about a subject and the Websites of all the educational/documentary channels offer bibliography. It's even in the ending credits of each documentary. I think a good combination of all those things is ideal but, again, not everyone has the money to travel the world.
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JustanObserver
 
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Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 12:50 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Why is it so hard to believe that average people around the world are just average?


Right on the money, McG.

The only hook is that there is no "average" standard that works globally. I remember being on vacation in Aruba, and it was "average" for kids to speak roughly 3-6 different languages (they started teaching multiple languages in elementary school). It blew my mind.
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Redheat
 
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Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 12:58 pm
JustanObserver wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Why is it so hard to believe that average people around the world are just average?


Right on the money, McG.

The only hook is that there is no "average" standard that works globally. I remember being on vacation in Aruba, and it was "average" for kids to speak roughly 3-6 different languages (they started teaching multiple languages in elementary school). It blew my mind.


How long did it take the US over European countries to require a second language? Young children actually learn a language better and faster then as they age. It would do this country a great deal of good to require languages in elementary school. I sure wish I'd paid attention more closely in school to learning a second language.

As you can see I'm still having my problems with ENGLISH! Rolling Eyes
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McGentrix
 
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Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 01:11 pm
I would expect other countries to know more about the US than people in the US do about other countries. But, are you telling me that kids in France knkow more about Zimbabwe or Sri Lanka than kids in America? I doubt it.

Being multi-lingual is great, but as long as one of those languages is English, what's the problem?

aruba is a world vacation resort. It helps to be able to talk to those that give you money. Go to Mexico City and tell me how many children are multi-lingual.
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 01:19 pm
Yes, I do believe it could be proven that French school kids know more about Zimbabwe or Sri Lanka. It has to be better than the kids I know. They're lucky to know where Santa Monica is.

Where are your statistics that children in Mexico City are not multi-linqual at least to the extent that there are more who know English than American school kids who know Spanish by percentage.
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Redheat
 
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Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 02:54 pm
McGentrix wrote:
I would expect other countries to know more about the US than people in the US do about other countries. But, are you telling me that kids in France knkow more about Zimbabwe or Sri Lanka than kids in America? I doubt it.

Being multi-lingual is great, but as long as one of those languages is English, what's the problem?

aruba is a world vacation resort. It helps to be able to talk to those that give you money. Go to Mexico City and tell me how many children are multi-lingual.


Actually that's exactly what I'm saying. Europe runs off an entirely different mode then the US. They are very much a part and educated in the world around them. That's why you see a greater access by the masses to different foods, cultures and traditions. Europe's history is full of evolving traditions due to the everchanging climate.

As long as they are English? Yes most multi language countries require English, and we should require say Spanish given the changing make-up in this country. However you could hear the Righy wing squeal across the pond if it was ever suggested that all US kids learn Spanish.

Mexico City would be different because most of the kids probably don't attend SCHOOL. However most civilized countries where the majority of kids do attend school of some kind do require they learn more then one language and given their exposure to many cultures it's probably easier to pick up. We don't have that kind of exposure here you would almost think the US was an Island.
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ehBeth
 
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Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 02:54 pm
I'm surprised that McG has forgotten about that National Geographic survey. About 11 percent of young citizens of the U.S. couldn't even locate the U.S. on a map. click

We've discussed it here at Able2Know at least once. like here ... Where McG said
Quote:
Well, to sound arrogant, why should Americans NEED to know about Canada? The US can annhilate everyone in the world at least a dozen times, has one of the leading world economies, makes vast scientific discoveries, and has McDonalds
....
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McGentrix
 
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Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 03:00 pm
Ah, yes geography...

Who has the graphs showing math skills? reading skills? Percentage of students that go on to and attain college degrees?

*sigh* at least I get to go home now.
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ehBeth
 
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Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 03:26 pm
You want them? I can get them.
The math skills ones are good.
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ehBeth
 
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Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 03:27 pm
and if you'll recall the discussion, McG, the question was not simply "geography", but it's implications for people understanding each other.
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the reincarnation of suzy
 
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Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 03:35 pm
McGentrix wrote:
According to Micheal Moore:

Micheal Moore wrote:
Take his description of his fellow countrymen and their blind pursuit of the American Dream: "They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet... in thrall to conniving, thieving, smug pricks.

"We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. We don't know about anything that's happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing. National Geographic produced a survey which showed that 60 per cent of 18-25 year olds don't know where Great Britain is on a map. And 92 per cent of us don't own a passport."


link


I don't see that as being dishonest, for the many reasons already pointed out. Also for the fact that we have inherited this great democracy but many Americans don't even bother to vote! If that isn't dumb I don't know what is! We are so wrapped up in our insular little world. When I talk to people about voting I have been informed that they are "too busy" living their lives to bother learning what they need to know to be an informed citizen. That's pretty sad, as well as dumb. That is not to say we are not as intelligent as people in other parts of the world. But many Americans sure don't act like it. They are perfectly content to let other people run the show without even knowing what's going on outside their front doors. Use it or lose it does apply to democracy, IMO.
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McGentrix
 
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Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2004 06:34 am
Just keep in mind that he's referring to ALL Americans, not just the conservatives that don't agree with him.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2004 09:58 am
He's not exactly happy with either of the major parties. Maybe he's right.
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rabel22
 
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Reply Wed 14 Jul, 2004 08:37 pm
Much of the geography of the world has changed. When I was 18 years old I could point out the position of almost any country on the globe. Now I dont know the position of half of the countries in Africa, Yugoslavia just blows my mind. Much has changed in 50 years but I still know where England, Canada, and Mexico are.
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