2
   

Leaving before I get banned.

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 06:49 am
Sometimes, cav, the best response absolutely is "No Response"; if more folks realized, and practiced, that, the rabblerousers would find their efforts much less rewarding. Ain't likely to happen though; the only reason "trolling" works is there's always somebody out there willing to rise to the bait.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 06:51 am
Sofia wrote:
I'd be very interested to know what policies in Canada you consider too left, ehBeth. I've always been really curious about members here, who explain that they are to the right of the political spectrum in their countries, but who I consider liberal. What on earth are *those* lefties espousing that you disagree with?


Hhmmm ...

I consider myself a radical left-winger. But still, I'm on the Green/free-thinking plank of the left, not the Red/collectivist one, and thus I have plenty to gripe about concerning those "lefties".

Stuff I have virulently disagreed on with people "to my left", so to say, include:

- any kind of apologetic, relativating or even defending argument re: the former Communist regimes in Central/Eastern Europe

- opposition to European unification (many on the left considers the EU a market-driven, corporate project, disempowering the people. They've got a point, but no real alternative)

- opposition to any military intervention, especially when it includes a role for NATO or the US (I was strongly in favour of the Kosovo intervention and understanding of the Afghan intervention)

- opposition to liberalisation of, say, shopping times and so on (they consider it an attack on workers rights, I consider it adapting to modern citizens' needs)

- liberalisation of the labour market (they think its wrong, period; I ain't too hot about it, but can see how its greatly benefited Dutch employment compared to the stagnant labour market in Germany)

- free trade on global level (ever more people on the left are realising that true free trade would actually benefit the Third World; but the classic red/left position is still to be clearly against it.

In general, but harder to pin down, the far-left Socialists are more collectivist than I feel comfortable with; the Greens are more individualist. The Greens are much more passionate about issues such as migrants' and asylum-seekers' rights and ethnic/cultural tolerance, gay/lesbian rights, the environment, of course, and in general social liberal causes that the Socialists do kindof agree on, but pay much less emphasis to. The "red" left is also considerably more populist, in an "against all" and "they're all frauds and exploiters, anyway" way, whereas the libertine/Green left is more constructivist.

Now, if you ask a real right-wing liberal, as we would call them, like Thomas, he would come with way more far-reaching examples I think. Involving taxes, privatisation, liberalisation, "reform" of social security, disability and unemployment benefits and so on - and all other kinds of such questions of economic liberalism in which he is to the right and people like me are on the left.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 06:52 am
True, Timber. It just upsets me that 'no response' has to be an option here. Well, life goes on, and there is no need to feed the trolls.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 06:54 am
Hey, it's been nice Wilso, keep in touch, here's yer hat . . . don't let the door hit ya in the ass . . .

Owww . . . what the . . . ow . . . heycuddidout . . . ow . . . i was only jokin' around . . . put that down, damnit ! ! ! Alright, just put that skillet away . . .

Wilso, we would be profoundly sorry to see you go, and hope you'll stick around.

You happy now, ya big little bully ?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 07:00 am
Buncha stuff there I'm with you on, nimh; a good idea is a good idea, a bad idea a bad idea, no matter which side may be its chief champion. Saddest of all are those so committed to one or another ideology as to reject even the possibility of alternate thought.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 07:04 am
Completely agreed, nimh, besides
nimh wrote:
... whereas the libertine/Green left is more constructivist.


Because, I think ...


No, you are correct: "constructivist" doesn't naturally imply to be "good working" but showing up possible alternatives is really something, which the 'traditonal' left misses. :wink:
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 08:12 am
Sofia wrote:
I don't think we have an authentic Conservative here.

Timber and I are very liberal socially--but I guess we would count.

Bird
Me
McG?
Brand X
Fox

We've lost most of the others I'm thinking of...
(More thinking)


OK ... <grins>

Here's my very subjective list of prolific right-wingers and doubtful cases

Fishin'
Asherman
Timber
Finn d'Abuzz
Ican711
Karzak
McGentrix
Brand X
Steissd
Phoenix
cjhsa
mysteryman
au1929 (he may be anti-Bush, that dont make him no leftie)
swolf
James Morrison
Sofia
Thomas
Coastal Rat
Moishe 3rd
Foxfyre
LRR Hood
Miller
Fedral
Occom Bill
Jim
MichaelAllen
Brandon9000
Husker
General Tsao (?)
Jarlaxle (?)
Scrat (gone?)
Tarantulas (gone?)
Georgeob1 (missed)



Oh, and Gus of course Razz
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 08:17 am
Aw, come on. Can't I at least be a doubtful?
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 08:27 am
nimh ik vroeg me af: ben jij ook echt lid van GroenLinks?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 08:29 am
Nimh,
I think you misplaced me on your list.
Am I a conservative? ABSOLUTELY YES.
Am I a "right-winger"?ABSOLUTELY NOT.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 08:32 am
There is no such distinction to be made--conservatives are "on the right," any claim to the contrary is disingenuous or stupidly naive.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 08:32 am
Sofia- What am I? Chopped liver??? Laughing

Nimh has me listed as a conservative, but that does not cover the entire picture. I AM conservative economically, but am extremely liberal socially, probably more so than the average Democrat!.
0 Replies
 
husker
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 08:34 am
Thanks Nimh!!
Finally took a bullet - and it didn't hurt the least Wink

conservative
conservative
conservative....
0 Replies
 
SueZCue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 08:49 am
See what I mean? Why is it always one side against another with no gray area. Phoenix describes herself as economically conservative but socially liberal. I describe myself the same way. There is common ground with most of us. I doubt that many people are 100% conservative or liberal. It's just that the media and the politicians know what the "hot topics" are and try to divide us down the middle for their own personal gain. If we're all busy fighting among ourselves we're not paying attention to the issues at hand. We're being used.

They're trying to pit one "side" against another and manipulate the general public. Don't fall for it.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 08:52 am
Setanta wrote:
There is no such distinction to be made--conservatives are "on the right," any claim to the contrary is disingenuous or stupidly naive.


Thats not true at all.
I have said it before,and will say it again...On some things I am just to the right of Attila the Hun,and on some things I am slightly left of Ted Kennedy.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 08:55 am
There ya go, SueZCue: "Hot topics". They're your buttons, its up to you to decide whether or not to let other folks push 'em for you.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 08:57 am
"bout the only time I could see bein' to the left of Teddy would be in the front seat of a car.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 09:00 am
What I can't understand is how anyone who says they are a social liberal would ever support the current president who has spent most of his time in office (when he wasn't offending the rest of the world through his swash-buckling) by trying to administer and/or legislate away protections for the poor, abortion rights, environmental safeguards and the separation of church and state.

Bush is a total failure in this regard. If these issues were important to you, you would not support him.
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 09:04 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
I AM conservative economically, but am extremely liberal socially, probably more so than the average Democrat!.

In Europe, socially speaking you would still be a Conservative Very Happy
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 09:07 am
Rick d'Israeli wrote:
Phoenix32890 wrote:
I AM conservative economically, but am extremely liberal socially, probably more so than the average Democrat!.

In Europe, socially speaking you would still be a Conservative Very Happy


True,but we arent in Europe.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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