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Why Do We Let bush Get Away With This Crap?

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 03:09 pm
This MSNBC Summary of the Senate Intelligence Committee Report's Conclusions[/i][/u] references neither "Salman Pak" nor "Training Camps". The draft release of the REPORT ON THE U.S. INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY'S PREWAR INTELLIGENCE ASSESSMENTS ON IRAQ (Download Note: 500+ Page PDF File) mentions Salman Pak, but neither confirms nor refutes assertions the facility trained Al Queda operatives specifically, though it does conclude that "foreign nationals" were known to have attended the facillity, without noting in specific why foreign nationals were there.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 03:42 pm
Worth noting too is that had information available through post-WWII official inquiries, including the exact composition, training, and capability of the Japanese High Seas Fleet, in particular its Carrier arm and their "Kate" torpedo planes and "Val" dive bombers, the "Longlance" torpedo modifications permitting it to be air-dropped and to run just beneath the surface, the unsuspected efficacy of the then-newly-developed Japanese armor-piercing/delayed-detonation bombs, and the intensive training revolving around co-ordinating such, been available in November of 1941, there would have been no December Surprise at Pearl Harbor. Hindsite is like that.
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rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 03:55 pm
I have quit reading Karzik's posts. He isent rational. I gave up on Mc Gentrix a long time ago for the same reason.
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rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 03:55 pm
I have quit reading Karzik's posts. He isent rational. I gave up on Mc Gentrix a long time ago for the same reason.
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Karzak
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 04:03 pm
And rationality is posting the same thing twice?

Or maybe it's just having an extreme liberal bias?
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 04:04 pm
rabel22, we all appreciate you posting that twice. It gives it the emphasis it needs. However, McG can be, at times, surprisingly rational. Karzak, I'm not so sure about.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 04:05 pm
What one thinks of other members commentary or style is one thing; offering perjorative observations re the personal attributes of a member is entirely another. Its pretty much the same in politics; absent cogent argument in specific with which to address an opponent's position or action, some folks are given, some even almost exclusively, to attacking the person of that opponent. In either theater, here or in politics, the tactic merely cheapens the practitioner. That's one reason Bush-Bashing doesn't bother me much; I merely consider the source.
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Karzak
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 04:09 pm
cavfancier wrote:
Karzak, I'm not so sure about.


I concur
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JustanObserver
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 04:17 pm
McGentrix wrote:
JaO, if you have nothing add, then add nothing.


That hasn't stopped you in the past, McG.

I respect other opinions and all that, but come on man. Sometimes certain things just have to be said (rules be damned! Laughing )
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 04:20 pm
<sigh>
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rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 04:20 pm
Sorry about the double post. It was a mistake.
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Karzak
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 04:32 pm
rabel22 wrote:
Sorry about the double post. It was a mistake.


Who is that karzik dood anyway?
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 09:24 pm
I think only a few people are still trying to make a hay day with one terrorist al aqueda cell in Iraq and that in itself meaning that Saddam condoned terrorist. The whole terrorist thing was just introduced to give more weight for the reasons for war with Iraq and it don't wash.

There are simply too many other countries with more terror cells in their borders and more countries with known WMD and countries with evil dictators. There was no reason to go war. You don't go to war because of what may happen and that is all that the justification for the war with Iraq is left with.

It was a dangerous thing to do. Now any country in the world that don't like another country or wants something the other country has or whatever can say, "well, this country might at some point harm our country and the US of A did it, so why can't we?"

The end. (i hope)
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Karzak
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 10:24 pm
revel wrote:
You don't go to war because of what may happen


Of course you do.
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Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 10:28 pm
revel wrote:
I think only a few people are still trying to make a hay day with one terrorist al aqueda cell in Iraq and that in itself meaning that Saddam condoned terrorist. The whole terrorist thing was just introduced to give more weight for the reasons for war with Iraq and it don't wash.

There are simply too many other countries with more terror cells in their borders and more countries with known WMD and countries with evil dictators. There was no reason to go war. You don't go to war because of what may happen and that is all that the justification for the war with Iraq is left with.

It was a dangerous thing to do. Now any country in the world that don't like another country or wants something the other country has or whatever can say, "well, this country might at some point harm our country and the US of A did it, so why can't we?"

The end. (i hope)


This is true. You don't go to war because of what may happen.
You go to war to defeat your enemy.
And, if one is smart about it, you pick the best strategic target that is available.
This is a war.
And, the United States has thus far done well in its strategy of attempting to eliminate key strategic targets.
Saddam Hussein was the only leader on this planet that celebrated 9/11 (all right, the Palestinians too, but they have no power).
We have been at war with Saddam Hussein since he invaded Kuwait - at least according to the Democratic US Congressman and US President (see previous post in this thread).
So, we attacked and removed a keystone in the war on Islamic Fascism.
Another previous post:
Quote:
With the destruction of the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saddam in Iraq, the United States has removed two Fascist regimes that were directly hostile to the United States.

In doing so, Iran, another hostile state, is now surrounded by nations that do not share its views of hegemony by terrorism; that do not share its views of Islam - Wilayat Al-Faqih, Rule by the Jurist, a new Shia cult invented by Khomeini in 1964 while he lived in Najaf, which is in Iraq; and who do not share Iran's views of the desirability of acquiring nuclear weapons.
Likewise, Syria (and its client state Lebanon) is now surrounded by nations that are inimicable to its interests.
Which is why Syria is sending its Sunni Muslims to murder Shia Muslims in Iraq and Iran is sending its Shia Muslims to murder Sunni Muslims in Iraq.
These are lovely people.
Other countries in the world such as France and Russia, opposed and still oppose these actions because they were having oily intercourse with Saddam. They resent their Oil For Fraud money being cut off.

In the meantime, Saudi Arabia now has to deal with the consequences of its own promotion of Islamic terror and fascism. Again, with Iraq on its border, it is also surrounded by nations (with the exception of Yemen) that find its Wahhabi national cult abbhorrent.
The Wahhabis murdered hundreds of thousandsof Shia Muslims in Northern Saudi Arabia and Southern Iraq in the last century.
They destroyed (the current ruling family of Jordan) the Hashemites who controlled Mecca and Medina.
Saudi Arabia has been put "on notice" by its neighbors through the actions of the United States.


To sum it up, the Bush Administration is doing what the previous Clinton administration and even the previous Bush administration have been trying to do for 14 years.
And they are succeeding.
Failure, as you may have noticed on 9/11, means death.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 05:45 am
Karzak wrote:
nimh wrote:
Karzak wrote:
The point is that the vast majority of politicians in the US and abroad believed saddam had stockpiles of chemical weapons, and that they posed a threat.


Am not going to go thru this whole thing again, so lets just post two quotes and leave it at that:

Two posts are hardly indicative of a majority, are they?

Eeehhmmm ... you were the one to talk of a "vast majority".

A vast majority of politicians abroad believed Saddam had stockpiles of WMD and that they posed a threat, was your assertion.

I just posted two random examples of politicians abroad who didn't believe that to be the case.

More where they come from, refuting your assertion about a "vast majority".
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 05:57 am
timberlandko wrote:
This MSNBC Summary of the Senate Intelligence Committee Report's Conclusions[/i][/u] references neither "Salman Pak" nor "Training Camps". The draft release of the REPORT ON THE U.S. INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY'S PREWAR INTELLIGENCE ASSESSMENTS ON IRAQ (Download Note: 500+ Page PDF File) mentions Salman Pak, but neither confirms nor refutes assertions the facility trained Al Queda operatives specifically, though it does conclude that "foreign nationals" were known to have attended the facillity, without noting in specific why foreign nationals were there.


OK. So from the barrage of alleged evidence concerning Salman Pak that was referenced earlier, on the basis of raw intelligence and such, by the Weekly Standard folks and people here,

- the Senate Intelligence Committee did not find anything that could confirm concerning an al-Qaeda link?
- It did find evidence that "foreign nationals" were there, but not from where or whom they came (let alone that they came from al-Qaeda), nor what they did there, if anything?

Kind of a non-story then, isn't it?

Karzak wrote:
revel wrote:
You don't go to war because of what may happen

Of course you do.

You didn't use to ...

WW1. WW2. Korea. The Gulf War. At none of these times did the US go to war on the mere suspicion of some future development.

It went to war because of some all too concrete and real actual transgression. The enemy occupying or invading an allied country (or five).

We didn't used to do "preventive wars". There used to be a need for an actual casus belli. And the mere suspicion that someone might be planning to do something wrong at some point in the future wasn't considered one.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 06:05 am
Quote:
And, if one is smart about it, you pick the best strategic target that is available.
This is a war.
And, the United States has thus far done well in its strategy of attempting to eliminate key strategic targets.
Saddam Hussein was the only leader on this planet that celebrated 9/11 (all right, the Palestinians too, but they have no power).
We have been at war with Saddam Hussein since he invaded Kuwait - at least according to the Democratic US Congressman and US President (see previous post in this thread).
So, we attacked and removed a keystone in the war on Islamic Fascism.


I am not going to get into this whole thing you are pushing about "Islamic Facism." I find it offensive number one because it is hate for people of a religion and number two, because it is just a theory that somebody thought up that it seeming to catch on to the rightest wing of the republican party.

(as a side note, I just don't like how that side gets the title "right")

There is a difference in the no fly zones actions and sanctions (that were working) and going to war and totally turning a country upside down and killing thousands of people on both sides. Despite your claim of success in Iraq, the evidence proves otherwise and enough said.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 06:18 am
Moishe3rd wrote:
With the destruction of the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saddam in Iraq, the United States has removed two Fascist regimes that were directly hostile to the United States.

In doing so, Iran, another hostile state, is now surrounded by nations that do not share its views of hegemony by terrorism; that do not share its views of Islam

Pretty much like it was before these interventions too. Saddams Iraq was Iran's mortal enemy; the Afghan Taliban adhere to a different religion (Sunni Islam) and were deeply distrusted by Iran. That didn't make them nice guys, but it does make your point here meaningless.

Moishe3rd wrote:
Other countries in the world such as France and Russia, opposed and still oppose these actions because they were having oily intercourse with Saddam. They resent their Oil For Fraud money being cut off.

Mere assertion without any proof. France had plenty of reasons to oppose the war. Even if an OFF-related motivation can be proven (which hasn't been done yet), it would only be one of many.

Moishe3rd wrote:
Again, with Iraq on its border, it is also surrounded by nations (with the exception of Yemen) that find its Wahhabi national cult abbhorrent.

Saddams Iraq also considered the Saudi's Wahhabi national cult abbhorrent. Again, that doesnt make Saddam into a good guy, but it does make your point meaningless.
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Karzak
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 09:22 am
revel wrote:

I am not going to get into this whole thing you are pushing about "Islamic Facism." I find it offensive number one because it is hate for people of a religion and number two, because it is just a theory that somebody thought up that it seeming to catch on to the rightest wing of the republican party.


Are you that far removed from reality?
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