Probabilities of reincarnation?

@FBM,

Humans appear to differ from animals in that we may conceive indefinite future time. Perhaps that explains why belief in life after death is so common. But, that is only basis for bias, not axiom for proof.

Taking only the word 'nephesh', meaning 'breather'. It seems obvious that when breathing ceases, 'nephesh' is no more.

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@neologist,

All that may be true, Neo...

...but that does not mean there is no such thing as a soul...independent from the corporeal being.

To say that there is no such thing as a soul...or that the corporeal being and the soul are one...

...is nothing but a guess being made by the religion you have adopted...even if it is an extension of a guess that there is a god...and that the Bible tells us what that god is like and what is so.

Right?

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@Frank Apisa,

I've already answered how I deal with the (IMO, inconsequential) uncertainty of my beliefs.
Further answer as to the meaning of 'soul' here

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@Frank Apisa,

Define 'soul', Frank.
I think we have different definitions and that mine is most appropriate.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

I've already answered how I deal with the (IMO, inconsequential) uncertainty of my beliefs.
Further answer as to the meaning of 'soul' here

I do not see the "uncertainties" of your guesses (you call your guesses, beliefs, right?)...as being particularly inconsequential, Neo.

They are quite formidable.

Really!

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A friend of mine posted this earlier.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Define 'soul', Frank.

No need. We both know what we are discussing.

Quote:

I think we have different definitions and that mine is most appropriate.

I think you meant "more" appropriate...and I doubt it.

But if you think you can define your "soul" to suit the guesses of the religion you have adopted...and make a point doing so...go for it.

This could be fun.

We are just discussing, Neo...not in a battle. Just a bit of Internet fun.

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@n0ki,

Minimal. the Idea of reincarnation is God rebirths you in a sinful world of suffering, death, poverty, corruptness and danger over and over again, and the only way out is to be better than par and ascend.. which implies only evil people repeat in a world of death.

The logic behind that is ridiculous, and no Hindu scripture supports that theory in the first place.

Resurrection and reincarnation are two separate things.

If I have read Hinduism correctly, reincarnation is a reference to your Offspring. Nature + Nurture = Personality.

"A faithful man (a man who believes in the laws of nature and righteousness) will have a rich reincarnate (because his parents are wise).

"A faithful man that attains no success will have a wise son.".

Others will be eaten by animals, and the animals will become accustomed to eating people and being around people, and they will be a plague on society.

and such, and so forth.

I can go on for hours about this.

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@Frank Apisa,

neologist wrote:

Define 'soul', Frank.

Frank Apisa wrote:

No need. We both know what we are discussing.

Not really, Frank. You are taking your definition from the Greek philosophers. Plato, for example, quotes Socrates as saying: “The soul, . . . if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, . . . goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear . . . and all the other human ills, and . . . lives in truth through all after time with the gods.”—Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A. This is not the understanding of the Bible writers.

For 'nephesh' meaning 'breather' it is obvious that when breathing ceases, 'nephesh' is no more. Thus, Ezekiel can say "The soul who sins shall die" - Ezekiel 18:4. And Solomon can write. "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all" - Ecclesiastes 9:5. So, it should be obvious that, to the Hebrews, soul is mortal.

Do you need evidence that the Christian writers applied the term 'psyche' in the same way? Guess what you will, Frank. I will bet that, at present, you land on the side of when you're dead, you're dead. But you will not concede the point.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

neologist wrote:
Define 'soul', Frank.
Frank Apisa wrote:
No need. We both know what we are discussing.
Not really, Frank. You are taking your definition from the Greek philosophers. Plato, for example, quotes Socrates as saying: “The soul, . . . if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, . . . goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear . . . and all the other human ills, and . . . lives in truth through all after time with the gods.”—Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A. This is not the understanding of the Bible writers.

For 'nephesh' meaning 'breather' it is obvious that when breathing ceases, 'nephesh' is no more. Thus, Ezekiel can say "The soul who sins shall die" - Ezekiel 18:4. And Solomon can write. "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all" - Ecclesiastes 9:5. So, it should be obvious that, to the Hebrews, soul is mortal.

Do you need evidence that the Christian writers applied the term 'psyche' in the same way? Guess what you will, Frank. I will bet that, at present, you land on the side of when you're dead, you're dead. But you will not concede the point.

I will always land on the side of "I have no idea of the REALITY. This may be all there is...and when I am "dead" I am simply "dead."

There may be something else.

Intelligent, reasonable, focused people have guessed both ways over the years...

...BUT I DO NOT KNOW which side is correct...or if both sides are wrong.

I do not know.

Why are you pretending you do?

What do you get out of that?

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I will always land on the side of "I have no idea of the REALITY. This may be all there is...and when I am "dead" I am simply "dead."

There may be something else. . .

This is a convenient position for you to take, don't you think? Or do you have no idea whether it is valid?

Perhaps you should undertake a serious search for more certainty. And might I suggest you more closely explore the contrary arguments you have heretofore discarded?

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
I will always land on the side of "I have no idea of the REALITY. This may be all there is...and when I am "dead" I am simply "dead."

There may be something else. . .
This is a convenient position for you to take, don't you think?

I think it is the honest and ethical position for me to take.

Don't you?

Quote:

Or do you have no idea whether it is valid?

Perhaps you should undertake a serious search for more certainty. And might I suggest you more closely explore the contrary arguments you have heretofore discarded?

I do not know the true nature of REALITY, Neo...and I suspect neither do you.

I have the ethical wherewithal to acknowledge that I do not know.

Do you?

Or are you going to continue to pretend you know stuff it is almost certain you do not know. (How's that for more certainty?)

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@neologist,

Nephesh is also the breath or life itself that can be given up, e.g. Jeremiah 15:9, a/o left in the netherworld (sheol), e.g. Psalm 16:10.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Humans appear to differ from animals in that we may conceive indefinite future time. Perhaps that explains why belief in life after death is so common. But, that is only basis for bias, not axiom for proof.

Taking only the word 'nephesh', meaning 'breather'. It seems obvious that when breathing ceases, 'nephesh' is no more.

OK, not sure why the non sequitur, but I'll run with it. What is there about a human that maintains his/her identity from birth to death? Other than convention, I mean.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

If reincarnation were a reality, why would earth's population not remain constant?

Not that I believe this but you aren't thinking broad enough. It could be explained by the idea that there are other realms of existence. One example would be animals can incarnate into humans. Or another would be if there is other life in the universe regardless of where it is, those beings could transmigrate into humans. Then of course you have heavens or hells where beings could come from. You don't have to assume that ONLY humans transmigrate into humans.

neologist wrote:

BTW, the soul is not an ethereal substance that can migrate between states. Your soul is you; and your soul is mortal.

What's the point of even talking about the soul if it's nothing more than a mortal entity or part of it. Seems like you are lumping some baggage that is so vague it makes no real distinction. Essentially all the soul would be then is life but then anything living is a soul? If that's the case why call it a soul, why not just use a more suiting word? Like, life, for example.

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@FBM,

2 points not meant to be syllogistically connected.

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@Krumple,

Have you ever heard of Eckankar?

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Have you ever heard of Eckankar?

new age silliness?

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@Krumple,

neologist wrote:

Have you ever heard of Eckankar?

You wrote:

new age silliness?

Heck, no. They have been around a long time.

About 40 years ago, I was on the road between Darrington and Monte Christo when I came across a carload of hapless folks with a flat tire. While I was helping them back to the road, I noticed all wore large buttons reading I (heart) ECK.

So I asked.

Turns out I had helped some folks whose souls had migrated from Venus. Strange they had made it so far without basic travel skills.

Google it if you don't believe me.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

neologist wrote:
Have you ever heard of Eckankar?
You wrote:
new age silliness?
Heck, no. They have been around a long time.

About 40 years ago, I was on the road between Darrington and Monte Christo when I came across a carload of hapless folks with a flat tire. While I was helping them back to the road, I noticed all wore large buttons reading I (heart) ECK.

So I asked.

Turns out I had helped some folks whose souls had migrated from Venus. Strange they had made it so far without basic travel skills.

Google it if you don't believe me.

If they offer you kool-aid don't drink it.

1 Reply

Probabilities of reincarnation?

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