BBB
Is there no end to how low the right wing-nuts will go........?
I do so hope that is the end of people claiming that a vote for Nader is not a vote for Bush!
dlowan wrote:I do so hope that is the end of people claiming that a vote for Nader is not a vote for Bush!
Not at all dlowan.
You are assuming that the person voting for Nader would otherwise vote for Kerry.
[etc]
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:dlowan wrote:I do so hope that is the end of people claiming that a vote for Nader is not a vote for Bush!
Not at all dlowan.
You are assuming that the person voting for Nader would otherwise vote for Kerry.
[etc]
Hey Finn, did you ever see this thread?
For some reason I think you'd be really good at it ...
would rather see Kerry in the White House than Nader, but those who vote for Nader are voting for Nader and not for Bush.
I agree that it is likely that many, if not most, would vote for Kerry
Quote:would rather see Kerry in the White House than Nader, but those who vote for Nader are voting for Nader and not for Bush.
I agree that most people who are voting nader are voting nader. However the net result is that a vote for nader is a vote for bush because it takes votes away from kerry that otherwise more than likely, as even you conceded, would have gone to kerry.
Quote:,I agree that it is likely that many, if not most, would vote for Kerry
Kerry does not them every single one of them, but he needs most of them in order to win. That is why a vote for nader is a vote for bush in the end.
nick picking is needful when you are defending yourself in a court of law but when you are defining reality it is not necessary if the one you are defining it to understands the point of the expression.
dlowan wrote:I do so hope that is the end of people claiming that a vote for Nader is not a vote for Bush!
Not at all dlowan.
You are assuming that the person voting for Nader would otherwise vote for Kerry.
They might instead vote for any other fringe candidate to appear on their ballot, write one in, or (more likely) not vote at all.
Refusal to vote for Kerry is not voting for Bush.
Nader only cost Gore the election in 2000 if you believe that all of his voters would have otherwise voted for Gore.
I may see a big difference between Bush and Kerry, but perhaps they would not, just as Nader supporters don't see the huge separation that Kerry supporters perceive.
The notion of urging Nader supporters to not throw their vote away is indicative of a ideological or (more likely) partisan mindset that either believe disaster lies within the election of the oppositions candidate, or is simply ridiculously tribal by nature.
I do not want Kerry to win, but I know that if he doesn't, the United States isn't about to fall into ruin because of his election. He will likely lead the nation in a direction of which I will not entirely approve, but it won't be all that far from the direction in which Bush will lead. Despite what so many would seem to have us believe, the President of the US is not and cannot become a dictatorial position...without the imposition of martial law and a complete abandonment of the constitution. No American president has done this. Bush hasn't done this and neither will Kerry. The congress and Supreme Court wield substantial power in checking the mischief of any president. Without an extreme upheaval never before experienced in this country, they will continue to exercise their ability to apply the brakes, whether they should or should not.
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:dlowan wrote:I do so hope that is the end of people claiming that a vote for Nader is not a vote for Bush!
Not at all dlowan.
Dlowan is essentially correct.
Obviously we disagree
Quote:You are assuming that the person voting for Nader would otherwise vote for Kerry.
She is, and rightfully so.
Quote:They might instead vote for any other fringe candidate to appear on their ballot, write one in, or (more likely) not vote at all.
Actually, that is not true.
A poll by the Voter News Service showed that if Nader was not an option, 47% of his supporters would have voted for Gore and only 21% would have voted for Bush.
Therefore, Kerry loses two votes for every vote Bush loses, and most prospective Nader voters would still vote if Nader wasn't an option.
Considering Nader snatches hundreds of thousands of voted in key states, his decision to run could be enough to sway the election, as he did four years ago.
I'm not sure what your definition of truth may be.
Is it not true that if Nader withdrew from the election tomorrow, those who currently plan to vote for him might "vote for any other fringe candidate to appear on their ballot, write one in, or (more likely) not vote at all?"
The fact that 47% plus 21% does not equal 100%, alone, would seem to support my contention.
And the mere fact that, according to this poll, 21% of the Nader vote would have went to Bush if Nader had dropped out proves that a vote for Nader is not a vote for Bush.
Quote:Refusal to vote for Kerry is not voting for Bush.
Nader only cost Gore the election in 2000 if you believe that all of his voters would have otherwise voted for Gore.
Not true.
Here we go again. The effect of voting for Nader, in some cases, may be depriving Kerry of a vote, but it is not a vote for Bush. This may seem like a difference without distinction to you and dlowan, but it's not to me or, I suspect, to Nader and his supporters. The distinctive difference lies in the usage of what amounts to a slogan: A Vote for Nader is A Vote for Bush. The slogan is being used to coerce Nader supporters from voting for their chosen candidate. There is nothing illegal or even morally wrong about such an attempt, but it is disingenuous for Kerry supporters to advance the slogan as some sort of irrefutable fact.
If we accept the statistics I posted above as a rough outline (47% of Nader voters would have voted Gore in his stead) then Nader did cost Gore the election. Over and over and over and over again, in fact.
Nader cost Gore several states, including, most infamously, New Hampshire and Florida. In Florida Bush won by around 500 votes, while Nader pulled in 100,000. Thats roughly 47,000 prospective Democratic votes - more than enough to deliver Gore the presidency.
It is reasonable to conclude that the Nader campaign had a material impact on the race, but it is partisan myopia to declare that it cost Gore the presidency. Gore was the Vice President during the eight year term of a polarizing, but overall popular president. At the time of the 2000 election, America was looking pretty good on both domestic and foreign fronts. Gore should have spanked Bush and yet he did not. The relative handful of Nader votes that may or may not have turned a couple of key states in a race that never should have been so close, didn't cost Gore the election. Gore cost Gore the election. I may be wrong but I don't think Gore himself has ever contended that Nader cost him the election.
Quote:I may see a big difference between Bush and Kerry, but perhaps they would not, just as Nader supporters don't see the huge separation that Kerry supporters perceive.
Some people don't see the difference between African Dung Beetles and helicopters. The difference exists nonetheless.
Likewise, some people don't see a difference between Bush and Kerry. There is a word for these people: morons.
This is precisely the attitude that, rightly, offends Nader and his supporters. Of course they see a difference between Bush and Kerry. That they don't see a difference rising to the magnitude of that which distinguishes a dung beetle from a helicopter doesn't make them morons.
There are reasonable arguments to be made that a Kerry presidency will not be substantively different from a Bush presidency as regards the areas Nader supporters most care about.
Quote:The notion of urging Nader supporters to not throw their vote away is indicative of a ideological or (more likely) partisan mindset that either believes disaster lies within the election of the oppositions candidate, or is simply ridiculously tribal by nature.
I see where you're coming from. But I consider it pragmatic, not tribal.
Having read your linked thread, it is neither for you, but rather: "a(n) ideological or (more likely) partisan mindset that ... believes disaster lies within the election of the oppositions candidate"
I hate the retarded pack mentality that often goes hand in hand with partisan politics. However, I'm merely recognizing reality when I say that one of two men will be president, neither of which is Ralph Nader, and voting for him is akin to throwing your vote away.
You are recognizing the reality of a person who is focused on seeing Kerry beat Bush. I can only repeat that voting for the candidate who best represents your ideals is not "throwing your vote away." You are, whether or not you appreciate it, dismissing anyone who doesn't vote for one of the two major party candidates. Their voting based on principles not pragmatism serves themselves and serves the process, and I can only offer you my assurance that I would see the issue exactly the same way if a conservative was running as a third party candidate.
Quote:I do not want Kerry to win, but I know that if he doesn't, the United States isn't about to fall into ruin because of his election. He will likely lead the nation in a direction of which I will not entirely approve, but it won't be all that far from the direction in which Bush will lead. Despite what so many would seem to have us believe, the President of the US is not and cannot become a dictatorial position...without the imposition of martial law and a complete abandonment of the constitution. No American president has done this. Bush hasn't done this and neither will Kerry. The congress and Supreme Court wield substantial power in checking the mischief of any president. Without an extreme upheaval never before experienced in this country, they will continue to exercise their ability to apply the brakes, whether they should or should not.
I agree.
This quote from your linked thread suggests otherwise: "Bush, however, has proved himself to be such a uniquely dangerous threat to the stability of global security, and domestic tranquility..."
But the differences between the candidates are numerous enough and fundamental enough that whatever similarities they have are drastically overshadowed by their differences.
Clearly not in the mind of Nader supporters.
I ran across quite a few Dean Democrats who previously expressed the opinion that they would not vote for Leiberman if he had secured the nomination. Assuming they made good on that declaration, surely they would not have believed they were throwing their vote away or voting for Bush. I'm sure Lieberman supporters were able to perceive a clear distinction between their guy and Bush and would have argued just as you are now arguing.
In any case, my reasons for loathing Nader and his followers are detailed in this thread.
Since you loathe Nader and his followers, I guess my appeal to your respecting their principles is falling on deaf ears.
Finn
Are you a politician. You think and split hairs like one. Everyone who is a middle of the road writer that I have read agrees that Nader enabled the election of Bush by entering the race and will again.
Well, some Republicans apparently are gambling that a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush ...
(Note: "You are *&!#! Wrong" will not be accepted as a correction)