8
   

Is the basic premise of transcendental idealism still valid?

 
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2015 05:17 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

No meat...just package. ...


I readily admit that I have very little worthwhile to contribute to this topic. I studied Kant, rationalism, idealism, etc, in undergrad, but that was a few decades ago. My chosen areas are Buddhist philosophy and Pyrrhonism. If the discussion turns to either of them, I'll deliver you a nice, juicy steak.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2015 05:23 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

FBM wrote:

The noumenon required by Kant is an entity/form not perceived by the senses, much like a god or spirit or soul.

No, not at all. Kant's relied on noumena as a way to explain the persistence of reality that did not rely on the existence of an omnivoyant being - thus refuting Berkeley's idealism.


I seem to be missing, mis-remembering or misunderstanding something.

Quote:
Noumenon
Philosophy
Written by: The Editors of Encyclopædia Britannica
Noumenon, plural Noumena, in the philosophy of Immanuel Kant, the thing-in-itself (das Ding an sich) as opposed to what Kant called the phenomenon—the thing as it appears to an observer. Though the noumenal holds the contents of the intelligible world, Kant claimed that man’s speculative reason can only know phenomena and can never penetrate to the noumenon. Man, however, is not altogether excluded from the noumenal because practical reason—i.e., the capacity for acting as a moral agent—makes no sense unless a noumenal world is postulated in which freedom, God, and immortality abide.


http://global.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/420847/noumenon
jrcollins
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2015 08:52 pm
@FBM,
I agree. Thanks for your comments.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 02:19 am
@FBM,
...I was just ranting...I do that time to time when I get frustrated with people's concern for public low risk correctness in opinion making instead of openly expressing their thoughts...It wasn't particularly addressed at you. Just venting off. Its silly trying very hard to not be silly. I favour palpable real relations to discuss philosophy informally and get to know what people really think...instead of the usual academic defensive fluff. I don't like to waste time with pseudo intellectual babble often hidden in technical lingo where nothing is added or subtracted from "herd said so and so do I"...this is not even thread related...it just ended here because well this was the last place where I saw it...either we have easy one pot shots from the middle of the road or Wiki 5 minutes quoting experts with nothing meaningful or fresh to say on a topic.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 02:40 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Understood. No offense taken. In one sense, I wish I had more to contribute to the topic, but in another I'm glad I didn't choose to devote too much of my study time to Kant.

And as far as not offering anything solid to sink your philosophical teeth into, I think Pyrrhonism would starve you to death. Wink
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 02:46 am
@FBM,
Careful with Kant's "God"...to my view it has nothing to do with the classical definition of God. Just a place holder constrained by the time he lived in...Kant recognised a Noumena must be independently of what we can know unlike Fresco is trying to portray...in fact that was the all point.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 02:50 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
A can o' worms I'd rather leave sealed...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 02:58 am
@FBM,
Kant is one of the most abused Philosophers in History...either by religious fanatics that feed from his Noumena with folklore as from pragmatists that point to the problem of knowledge and skip Kant's emphatic reminder on a need for a "Rational" where phenomena can rest and be supported...both sides abuse at will and both miss the point. Kant's stance is very much actual.

If you ask me the inaccessible yet extrapolated Multiverse in String Theory would be the modern version of kant's Noumena. In sum his ideas are alive and well.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 03:07 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
I think I sounded like I was abusing him earlier, but that wasn't my intent. I no longer have a dog in the rationalist-realist-idealist fight.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 03:08 am
The problem with Metaphysics is that thinking people sooner or later get to it one way or another and after a while they get pissed with it and throw a tantrum...
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 03:14 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Pyrrhonism in a nutshell, that is.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 03:18 am
@FBM,
Very much so. Well spotted. Laughing
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 03:20 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/tiphat.gif
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 03:21 am
Speaking about motives rather then reason, Philosophy "moods", currents of thought, can perhaps be boiled down to "to much chocolate" or lack of it... aaaah freaking human mind chemistry... Cool
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 03:55 am
Speaking in Wiki 5 minute shots this is something actually worth retaining and that fits exactly my earlier comments:

Quote:

Henry Allison In Kant's Transcendental Idealism, Henry Allison proposes a reading that opposes Strawson's interpretation. Allison argues that Strawson and others misrepresent Kant by emphasising what has become known as the two-worlds reading (a view developed by Paul Guyer). This — according to Allison, false — reading of Kant's phenomena/noumena distinction suggests that phenomena and noumena are ontologically distinct from each other. It concludes on that basis that we somehow fall short of knowing the noumena due to the nature of the very means by which we comprehend them. On such a reading, Kant would himself commit the very fallacies he attributes to the transcendental realists. On Allison's reading, Kant's view is better characterized as a two-aspect theory, where noumena and phenomena refer to complementary ways of considering an object. It is the dialectic character of knowing, rather than epistemological insufficiency, that Kant wanted most to assert.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 04:11 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
I brought this up because I have often insisted phenomena are no less real then noumena in spite of their secondary entangled nature...it boils down to a very old topic here in the forums...we all remember the debating that an hallucination is a REAl hallucination...that dreams are REAL dreams...phenomena derivative as they may be are real things...the problem resides in stipulating exactly in what measure these things are real instead of questioning their realness in the first place...where do they belong and what is the nature of their object ? ...this sort of reasoning evades Fresco pseudo stance on the matter of "no realism" which is a contradiction per se. It does so at no cost for the Noumena or recognizing Metaphysics validity. Modern Science now leaving behind its infancy is slowly but surely starting to be confronted with these problems...obviously Science which is nothing but a method will always be a subsidiary of Philosophy and necessarily unfolds into philosophical
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 04:29 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
"phenomena are no less real then noumena" works, as far as I can tell. I recall a phrase "epistemological veil" that I used to banter around quite a bit. I'm not sure we have anything other than phenomena, though I mean that as skepticism, not denial.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 04:31 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
I brought this up because I have often insisted phenomena are no less real then noumena in spite of their secondary entangled nature...it boils down to a very old topic here in the forums...we all remember the debating that an hallucination is a REAl hallucination...that dreams are REAL dreams...phenomena derivative as they may be are real things...the problem resides in stipulating exactly in what measure these things are real instead of questioning their realness in the first place....this sort of reasoning evades Fresco pseudo stance on the matter of "no realism" which is a contradiction per se. It does so at no cost for the Noumena or recognizing Metaphysics validity. Modern Science now leaving behind its infancy is slowly but surely starting to be confronted with these problems...obviously Science which is nothing but a method will always be a subsidiary of Philosophy and necessarily unfolds into philosophical debating.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 04:34 am
@FBM,
Its very simple to prove starting with minds themselves...what is there to know without minds ? How could minds themselves not be objects, not be "real" and apprehend anything ? Minds are real minds but they don't create themselves out of their own bootstraps...you cannot invent mind without a mind if minds invented stuff...thus there must be an a priori reality that supersedes minds !
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 May, 2015 04:39 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
"How could minds themselves not be objects"

Brains or minds? Minds seem to be more like processes than objects. Reification is hard to avoid for the human mind (like that, for example) to avoid. Wink
 

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