is it wrong to make my fiance choose between me and his son?

you can certainly do that.

It would be wrong of him to pick you. It does sound like he needs to step up more for his son.

Not sure how/why you're involved with anything with his son at this point. He needs to be responsible for what's happening there.

Ehbeth hit the nail on the head...his first priority must be to his son, not you. There is no way on earth a father should ever abandon a young son - it's that simple (an older son who's going his own way may be a different matter).

The question then is really:
- do you want to put up with it; and/or
- have you taken every approach possible to make mitigate the problem? (if this is worthwhile to you)

As an example for the last part - most people don't realise we aren't 'born' with conflict resolution skills. In fact, the vast majority of people are terrible at such, and only get by because most people want peace. If you run up against someone who isn't interested in peace, do you have the skills to deal with it? If you don't, then counsellors may be able to offer assistance. Barring that, course or books on: manipulative people / difficult conversations / assertiveness / conflict management may come in handy.

In terms of how organisations are reacting to your approaches - mostly they are there to help, and to solve problems. I have a rule I apply to myself in the workplace :
- if I have conflict with one person - it may just be a personality clash
- If I have conflict with 2 people - I may just be unlucky
- If I have conflict with 3 people (and those people aren't prone to conflict), then I need to start looking at the common denominator (ie. How I'm contributing to the conflict)

.....this isn't a form a blame (which I don't believe in - my take is contributing circumstances & personal responsibility)..... but rather a possibility that the way you are presenting your information to other people may be ringing alarm bells with those organisations. It is something to consider, perhaps.

Of all the things that I think would be helpful - reading into about how manipulative people work would be my suggestion (an easy book is 'In sheeps clothing'). All these forms of conflict involve manipulation.

Hope it helps.

Short answer - yes.

How can you ask a dad to give up his son? Especially a four year old child? Put yourself in his shoes -- if you had a young child would you abandon your child for another man?

I am not saying this situation is not fair or easy for you - - but we are talking about a four year old innocent child that is put in this situation and is not capable of caring for himself. He needs his dad and mom (unless one or the other is abusive). A parent's first responsibility is to their child any parent knows this.

If the situation is too difficult for you, I would suggest one of two options. 1) move out - if you are living together - until all custody issues are resolved - and limit your interactions with the boy - that way you will not get involved with DFS. Let your future husband resolve all this first. This may help him too so he can focus on this difficult time. Spend time with your future husband alone without the child and develop your relationship with each.
2) break up completely if it is too difficult for you - the son is going to be in your future husband's life forever. A child is not a dog or cat that you can get rid off.

In any case, do not get married until all this is resolved.

In trying to keep it short and sweet I have left out a lot of the details. She is bipolar and manipulative. She is also childish and refuses to look at herself add an issue and blames everything on everyone else. (Even all this cannot explain the amount of stress and crap she's bright into our lives)

We tried being civil from the beginning and then she said if he even brought his son to my house she would deny visitation. Later, when I had an emergency restraining order against her because she almost hit me, my fiance, and our two puppies with her car by crossing the lane of traffic and pinning us against a dumpster things got really bad.She even violated the restraining order which apparently meant nothing. I was refused a more permanent restraining order even though she harassed and threatened me and broke the emergency o.p. because she lied on the stand and we found out that she was pregnant. We asked why she couldn't be civil in all this before it went to court but she refused.

She has always called my fiance "the sperm donor" and makes it very clear that she wants him to have nothing to do with their son's life even now. She has also harassed us about my fiance's other son. She has been told numerous times she is not to have contact with him because of her abuse to him in the past and then has still done so multiple times leading up to Christmas vacation when he was with his grandparents and she went to go visit him. We went to the cops, they refused to do anything unless we got a restraining order. We go to get a restraining order and are told by the judge that we don't need one because she has no rights to the child she has to listen to what the father says. Fast forward to a month ago she starts talking to him and rubs him on the head at the police station so it's all on video. The cops say they can't do anything and only make a call to her which only leads to her threatening us. Just on Monday I was told by my counselor that that was assault because she has been told to leave him alone. So the cops are just not wanting to do their jobs.

When we went to dcfs about the lump on his head, he said "mommy threw him on the floor". But when he talked to them he refused to say anything. Since then anytime we ask him how he got say a huge cut down the front of his nose he says he doesn't know. She says he tells her we tell him to be bad so she won't want him anymore which is funny because she has told him "are you going to be a little **** for daddy? You should, he deserves it" and he tells us all the time that he hates mommy and wishes he could live with us. We also never say anything bad about her in front of him. The last time he was here he looked at me like I was evil and as the kids were playing he said he hates me because I wouldn't let him go back to mommy which is something I've never said. And apparently when dcfs talked to him at school yesterday he told them that his father beats him with a belt and hits him more than mommy and that he's more afraid of him than he is of mommy. (By the way his mother is not allowed to see my fiance's other son because she admitted to holding a pillow over his face, putting her hands around his throat, and "treating him worse than a dog" among other things. He was 4 or younger when she did these things to him). All of the things he told dcfs is bullshit because we don't do anything to him. She has their son the majority of the time and she spews venom about us all the time all over Facebook and even in conversations to my fiance so why would she be any different when it comes to the people she's around, like her son? We know that she says things to him and that she's trying to poison him against us just because of his changing behavior towards us.

My fiance loves his son and we are both involved because we are going to be married in less than 4 months and I've been trying to be supportive this entire time but it's bullshit what the mother is doing to her child and us. And I know that most of society says the children have to come first but that's wrong. The love between a couple and the marriage has to come first and then you care and love for your kids. I know he's not mine but I try to love him as so. Kids should be a top priority in life, no doubt, but they should not be number one. That's why we have a generation of spoiled brats and couples who find they have nothing in common and break up after the kids are gone. I'm not saying he shouldn't take care of his kids but I'm saying that after 2 failed marriages (one cheated and walked out on him, one is this woman who cheated less than a month after they were married and accused him and his son) and another failed relationship (also cheated and walked out on her 1yr old son) all of them resulting with kids, she is the only one who makes our life hell because of the type of person she is. Do we not have the right to try to be happy when we've both found the one? Do I not have a right to not be harassed and threatened and treated like **** and be able to love the man I'm going to marry? In a perfect world we could make it work somehow but the system is broken and she's so used to being fake because of being bipolar that she manipulates people and lies to make herself feel better. I have a right to be happy and so does my fiance and I deserve to not be treated like **** by random strangers and a woman who hates me for... whatever her excuse is (because she's honestly never really even talked to me). I don't want to make him give up on his son but I don't know what else to do. There's no reasoning with this woman and the cops won't do their job half the time and everyone treats us terrible because they listen to her bullshit. The only way to stop playing her game is to give up.

If you noticed in my post, she is abusive. And I have tried to read lots of things on the matter. In fact, I have no contact with her at all now because of it. But that doesn't mean that I don't be supportive for his father or when my counselor had to report it that it didn't drag me into things. And my fiance has been trying to resolve this, we've gone through courts and to the cops and even just tried to reason with her and nothing works.

I did read the post - why I added the abusive in parenthis - and this is all the more reason that your future husband should be fighting for his child and not just give him up.

It seems this is too difficult a situation for you - it is not an easy situation and no one is suggesting it is - but saving a child from a potential abusive situation is worth the fight. This child is not yours - you need to determine for yourself whether you are willing to be a part of this difficult situation or not.

What I am saying is if you are unwilling or if it is too difficult for you to be a part of this fight, then it would be best if you either ended the relationship or took a step back. It isn't easy and in a way it is unfair to you - but a young child's life is at stake which to be honest is more important/more immediate than your relationship with your boyfriend.

Abandoning the child to his mother is not an option.

If it is too difficult for you to stay with your fiance while he attempts to help his son you may have to decide to leave the relationship with him.

I am reading all of this and huge red flags crop up....

My fiance loves his son and we are both involved because we are going to be married in less than 4 months and I've been trying to be supportive this entire time but it's bullshit what the mother is doing to her child
and us.

Do not get married - you have so many unresolved issue - it is not the child's fault that his mom has issues - the poor thing do you not have any thoughts for him?

And I know that most of society says the children have to come first but that's wrong.

Why is it wrong? A child cannot care for himself - it does not mean you do not care for each other as a couple, but you can take care of yourself can you not?

The love between a couple and the marriage has to come first and then you care and love for your kids. I know he's not mine but I try to love him as so.

If you loved this child you would not ask your future husband to choose between the two of you - you would be there fighting for him no matter how difficult the mom is and what you are put through.


Kids should be a top priority in life, no doubt, but they should not be number one. That's why we have a generation of spoiled brats and couples who find they have nothing in common and break up after the kids are gone.

No this is not true - if kids are your top priority - you do not spoil them as you want them to grow up to be contributing adults; you want them to be successful -- making them a priority does not mean that you spoil them - it means you care for them and teach them to be independent adults. It also does not mean you neglect your marriage and commitment to each other.

I'm not saying he shouldn't take care of his kids but I'm saying that after 2 failed marriages (one cheated and walked out on him, one is this woman who cheated less than a month after they were married and accused him and his son) and another failed relationship (also cheated and walked out on her 1yr old son) all of them resulting with kids,

This is also a worry - two failed marriages and you are rushing into marrying him in 4 months while there are all these major issues in his life? That is plain old dumb - ready for a 3rd failed marriage? He needs to resolve what is going on in his life before he makes another lifelong commitment to someone else. You may not want to hear it but this sounds like another doomed marriage. Marriage is hard enough when things are going well - but here you are starting out on about as a bad a foot as you can.

she is the only one who makes our life hell because of the type of person she is. Do we not have the right to try to be happy when we've both found the one? Do I not have a right to not be harassed and threatened and treated like **** and be able to love the man I'm going to marry?

Yes you have a right to be happy; yes you have a right to not be harassed and threatened -- but that is not the situation; you have to deal with what you have --- you are about to be married to a man that is dealing with a really bad situation. Not fair for you; not fair for him; certainly not fair for an innocent young child - but it is. If you marry him - this is going to exist you can't just dump the child so you can have all the happiness that you may deserve. This is life - it isn't always fair.

In a perfect world we could make it work somehow but the system is broken and she's so used to being fake because of being bipolar that she manipulates people and lies to make herself feel better. I have a right to be happy and so does my fiance and I deserve to not be treated like **** by random strangers and a woman who hates me for... whatever her excuse is (because she's honestly never really even talked to me). I don't want to make him give up on his son but I don't know what else to do. There's no reasoning with this woman and the cops won't do their job half the time and everyone treats us terrible because they listen to her bullshit. The only way to stop playing her game is to give up.

And if that is how you feel - you may need to walk away from him - I am not being mean or even think you are wrong either way - it isn't easy; it might be best no matter how much you love him to walk away. You need to decide for yourself if you are up for this. To be honest it sucks and I feel for you - but the last thing I would recommend is for this man to give up his child.

We are not rushing into getting married we have been engaged for over a year and I have been supporting him throughout all of this. However I have just finally reached my breaking point. It also doesn't help that the child is now being poisoned against us and acts as such too. Before, we knew she would say things but he still acted the same and now he has become hateful.

And don't tell me that I have no thoughts for the kid because I have bent over backwards to try to get him away from that bad situation and as I've said we've even tried to reason with her several times.

The reason this is coming up is because we are about to get married. My fiance says he doesn't want to postpone the wedding but I refuse to be abused by this woman or to let her abuse the rest of the family because of this one child. My fiancee has his other children to think about as well and me. Her abuse will never stop unless she is forced to stop. And you're right I can't marry him with the way things are now tha's why I'm trying to get a solution before the wedding.

And no, you cannot say that I'd be fighting for him no matter what because at the end of the day he's not my kid, I have no legal rights in any of this. Also, after being a victim of abuse from an ex of my own for 3 years it is not wrong for me to say that I will not let myself be abused anymore either, even by her. So yeah, I am trying to take care of myself and trying to get some resolution before entering into a marriage that would possibly be doomed if this is not solved beforehand. I know it's a terrible situation to be in but my fiance deserves to be happy and if his ex is hellbent on ruining everyone's - including her son's - life then that is her fault and we cannot stop her but we don't have to enable her to ruin our entire family's lives for the sake of the one child she will always have access to and always be ruining his life. And if he decides that it is worth ruining all of our lives for their son then that's his decision to continue to let them all be abused my her and you're right I can take care of myself and say I won't be abused any longer which is why I have told him that if that's his decision then we will no longer be together.

Get a PPO against her. Pick up the child (for the exchange) at the local police station. If the child is handed off to you and has been harmed, you will have witnesses to that.

You need a family court lawyer who has experience working with CPS.

Right now, the first concern is the child's welfare.

Don't marry right now. You two have this big issue that needs to be settled.

all great recommendations

I wondered if there was a way to request supervised visits.

I never said you had no thoughts for the child --- I said that if you loved him, you would not be willing to give him up and not fight for him. There is a difference between having feelings and love. You mention trying to reason with the child - he is four. Four year old children do not have the capacity to fully reason things out. Unless maybe you are referring to his dad?

I am also trying to help you - your choice on whether you want to get involved in this or not. Of course this is coming up because you are going to get married. It is a huge issue -- your fiance says he doesn't want to postpone the wedding - it may hurt but I will be honest, he doesn't have a good track record. This is rushing in - he wants to get married before issues are resolved this is rushing - it has nothing to do with time - it has to do with if you are both ready. A year may be ample time for one couple, 6 months may be for another, and 5 years for yet another. Rushing is when you are unwilling to postpone when there are major issues.

I am also supporting you in not wanting to be abused - why do you think I am saying you are not ready for this marriage - you do not want to be "abused" by this other parent, nor is it fair that you are. If you do not want to deal with this mom, then you may have to break things apart with your fiance.

You keep having conflicting statements - I have feelings for this kid you say; another you say you love him, but then again you say you don't want to fight for him, he is not my kid. Which is it? Do you love him? Do you have feelings for him? Do you want to step away from this child? None of these choicess are wrong if is what you want and what is right for you. You are correct he is not your child; you can step away and never be involved with this child if that is what you desire - but if you marry your fiance he will be your step child and with that comes responsibility toward the child. It is ok if you do not want this --- but you really should not be married to this man if you are unwilling to care for his child.

I do feel for you and if it makes you feel better go ahead and yell at me to get it out. Yeah the ex sounds like a terrible person, and she seems to be causing all sort of issues to screw with you and your potential future family, but unfortunately when you marry someone with a child from another person the baggage is there. It sucks wish I could give you better advice and something that would make this all happy - but it isn't going to happen that way.

Personally I would never want to be involved with a man that would be willing to walk away from their child. I dated a man once that had a young child - we were out on a date, and he said he had to make a call -- I found out that he was calling the mother of his child. He was supposed to be with the little and decided he wanted to continue our date longer. I found this out afterwards, and was mad at him and told him his daughter should come first. We didn't last very long after that.

We are doing the exchange at the police department (more recently). That's even where she assaulted his other son, on tape! And they refused to do anything about it and we didn't find out about the burns on this child until later. We have put in a petition to change the arrangements that still hasn't gone to court since before October. And we can't have supervised visits because she has sole custody right now and we only see him every other weekend because right after their divorce he moved back in with his parents and took his other son with him and didn't want to put even more on his parents because he was trying to finish college. And since she has sole custody and doesn't have a job and is at the house 24/7 she now has plenty of time to poison him against us and tell him what to/what not to say. We have a family lawyer that has connections to everyone in the area and works on these things all the time, still nothing has changed, nothing is working. Our first priority this entire time has been what's best for the child but the system is falling us and I'm tired of being abused. It's not wrong to want to get away from the abuser in your life, and it's not just me she's abusing. She abuses my fiance and has previously abused his other son who lives with us and harasses all of us. We can't get definitive proof that she's abusing her son but I'd almost guarantee it plus when we do get proof he shys away from telling the truth and this time he even turned it around and said WE are abusing him which is a total lie. On top of it, her boyfriend who just got out of jail for a 3rd DUI that she just had a baby with (born almost 5 weeks early) used to date my fiance's cousin and they broke up because HE is abusive too. He's the one the child told me burned him with his cigarette. oh, and she also blames us for the baby being early because of too much stress in her life and claims that we almost killed them both because she can't take any responsibility for anything that goes on in her life.

Sounds to me as though every adult involved on both sides is dysfunctional...and I would almost bet that the children involved, no matter who takes charge...will eventually live dysfunctional lives also.

My guess is the cops are tired of everyone on both sides...and realize this is just breeding trouble for future generations of cops in the area where these people all live.

ask your lawyer (or whoever is involved with this) if those meetings every other weekend can be done in a supervised setting - so someone neutral can see how your fiance behaves with his son, and can also witness any unusual behaviours by the four year old.

perhaps someone at your church could be the neutral witness. the pastor or a church volunteer might be a good option for this sort of thing.

It's not that we've tried to reason with the child, we've tried to reason with his mother. And I made the statement of him not being my kid because I have no legal rights to do anything at this point. I do love him and I do care about him but his mother is the biggest ¢*#+ you've ever seen. I love my fiance and I love his kids and I've been supportive this whole time but it's clear to me now that she will never stop being abusive and vile to anyone that has to deal with her. We will never be able to get him away from her completely so she will always be ruining his life but that doesn't mean she has to ruin my, my fiance, and his other son's lives too.

Once again, we've petitioned to make changes to the arrangement but until we go to court we're at the mercy of whatever she wants or going back to the paperwork which says her house

Could a church volunteer go with your fiance when he spends time with his child?

I think it's worth asking the lawyer if that is an option.

No, we are not all dysfunctional. It's not my fault she is abusive and was raised in an abusive household and continues the cycle. It certainly doesn't help that she's bipolar or that alcoholism runs in her family. My fiancee and I on the other hand are both graduating college with electrical engineering degrees, and I already have one in physics. Neither of us have substance abuse issues and we both are trying to make a better life for ourselves while she is still living with her mother and just quit her job and had this new baby with the guy who just got out of jail. And we are trying to move out of the area. The problem with the cops is that this is a small area and we are dealing with cops from different counties because she lives on a different town and for the most part unless it's criminal they don't think it's their job because they don't want to do the paperwork.