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U.S. War on Terrorism: Change in World Opinion?

 
 
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 07:04 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
argome321 wrote:
I mean you have got to love all the peace and security that we are having now.


A lot of which can be put down to the illegal invasion of Iraq. Compare that to Kosovo, when the decision to act was for the right reason.


For one this was a sarcastic reply to timur.

Second, I think that there will always be war for what ever reasons.
I think that there is and always will be pure unmitigated evil with no respect for life and no amount of rationale will dissuade it.

Third, I feel that there are too many parts and like any machine with many parts that allows for many thing that can go wrong.

That doesn't mean or guarantee that things will go right but I despise compromise.







timur
 
  2  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 07:11 am
Argome wrote:
For one this was a sarcastic reply to timur.


I'd love sarcasm if so many lives of innocent people weren't at the stake.

A few warmongers allow themselves, at a whim, to erase such lives, oblivious of the consequences.

We are living the consequences now and it's not the way Argome sees the problem that will solve the situation.
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 07:18 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
It's a very simple concept, you're the one who seems to have problems dealing with the realities of world politics and diplomacy.

There was a lot of conviction leading up to the illegal war in Iraq, and that was a total screw up.


No, I thought America was too busy trying not to offend the middle east and it's Allies like France.

The concept of war being legal or illegal is a silly concept. You think those who die in war give a crap? You think that they are any less dead?

Here again I'll make my point, one it seems you fail to understand. The US should make definitive decisions either one way or another and not be influenced by any other countries, that is in the best interest of the US and live with it regardless of the ramifications.

I'm talking about leadership. In truth I guess I'm honestly don't give a damn about what others countries think or want. Hmm... I guess I am admitting it.

You may and can draw any scenarios you like.


argome321
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 07:21 am
@timur,
Quote:
We are living the consequences now and it's not the way Argome sees the problem that will solve the situation.


You don't know that.

Do you have facts for your reasoning?
Again, how did we arrive at this point and time?
Diplomacy?
like everyone else I see it from my point of view.
Can you tell me you don't see it from your point of view?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 07:54 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:
No, I thought America was too busy trying not to offend the middle east and it's Allies like France.


Really? That's what you thought?

So illegally invading Iraq was all about placating France and saudia Arabia?

Your point seems to be that the whole problem with the war in Iraq wasn't the way it was conducted, but the failed attempt to get a Security Council resolution authorising action.

That's mental, that was the only thing that was right about the war. Imagine if Dubya had actually obeyed international law and not invaded, Putin might have thought twice about flouting it. No ISIS in Iraq, and a stable Afghanistan benefitting from the resources squandered in Iraq.

The problem with the Iraq war is that it was a total cock up from start to finish. It was based on a huge lie, Saddam had no WMDs. The intelligence was piss poor, not only did they not appreciate the sectarian nature of Iraq, they thought they'd be welcomed as liberators. There was no plan whatsoever about what to do post Saddam, which lead to rampant corruption. Prior to the invasion Dubya pissed off the Shia, (who should have been allies,) by including Iran in his moronic axis of evil speech. And the whole thing was done on the cheap.

World opinion said the invasion was wrong because it was wrong. It was an illegal, based on a lie, ill thought out, badly resourced, bereft of any real intelligence, underfunded, ill conceived, almighty screw up. You can pour conviction over that sorry mess by the bucket load and it's still a screw up.

What you don't seem to get, is that it's sometimes in America's best interests to listen to what other nations have to say instead of going half cock at something and screwing up.
argome321
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 08:35 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Really? That's what you thought?

So illegally invading Iraq was all about placating France and saudia Arabia?

Your point seems to be that the whole problem with the war in Iraq wasn't the way it was conducted, but the failed attempt to get a Security Council resolution authorising action.

That's mental, that was the only thing that was right about the war. Imagine if Dubya had actually obeyed international law and not invaded, Putin might have thought twice about flouting it. No ISIS in Iraq, and a stable Afghanistan benefitting from the resources squandered in Iraq.

The problem with the Iraq war is that it was a total cock up from start to finish. It was based on a huge lie, Saddam had no WMDs. The intelligence was piss poor, not only did they not appreciate the sectarian nature of Iraq, they thought they'd be welcomed as liberators. There was no plan whatsoever about what to do post Saddam, which lead to rampant corruption. Prior to the invasion Dubya pissed off the Shia, (who should have been allies,) by including Iran in his moronic axis of evil speech. And the whole thing was done on the cheap.

World opinion said the invasion was wrong because it was wrong. It was an illegal, based on a lie, ill thought out, badly resourced, bereft of any real intelligence, underfunded, ill conceived, almighty screw up. You can pour conviction over that sorry mess by the bucket load and it's still a screw up.

What you don't seem to get, is that it's sometimes in America's best interests to listen to what other nations have to say instead of going half cock at something and screwing up.


No, not my point at all, you infer many things, none of which I suggest. I 'm only stating "make a decision either way, which you seem to continuous over look to belabor and prove some point in your own mind.

I do concede I don't give a rat arse as to what others want because like every other country they are looking out for their own interest, and well they should, that often comes into conflict with other countries.

I will ask you again show me where I have advocated any particular action, one over the other, other then wanting America to make a decision with conviction and with her best interest in mind and take responsibility for it?

So stop inferring what you think I want beyond what I say.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 08:54 am
@argome321,
The problem is you're saying very little. We all want politicians with conviction who will act in our nation's interests. You don't seem to be able to say how that would work in any given situation.

There's no real argument on your part, first you claim the failure of the Iraq war was down to a lack of conviction, too much time wasted on the French and the Arabs. Now when the real reasons for the fiasco are pointed out you accuse me of putting words in your mouth.

The problem is, you don't have a coherent argument, other than meaningless platitudes about conviction and the romantic concept of going it alone. You seem quite divorced from the realities of global politics.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 08:56 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:
The concept of war being legal or illegal is a silly concept. You think those who die in war give a crap? You think that they are any less dead?


No but I think the soldiers made to fight in such wars would feel better knowing it was a just cause as opposed to a spot of illegal adventuring.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 08:57 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:
Do you have facts for your reasoning?


You don't have any facts, just rhetoric, and not very good rhetoric at that.
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 09:49 am
@izzythepush,
I don't need facts for an opinion and this op is about opinions... haven't you notice?

Nor does it require any facts to say people should make definitive decision for their best interest as a position.

...For some reason you can seem to get in your head.

You have failed to address what I have said and continue to argue your inference and in essence you've been arguing with yourself.
ehBeth
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 09:56 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:

Here again I'll make my point, one it seems you fail to understand. The US should make definitive decisions either one way or another and not be influenced by any other countries, that is in the best interest of the US and live with it regardless of the ramifications.


the American misadventures in the Middle East over the past 35 years were in the best interest of the US? really?
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 10:01 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:
I just want a definitive decision.
I don't care how unstable a region is, that in and of it self doesn't mean you can't make a definitive stance if you have the guts to do so.


you have no business taking action on a stance when your country does not understand the situation - ignoring experts who do know something about the situation just makes you look stupid - and in the case of the US and the Middle East has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people

ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 10:02 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

argome321 wrote:
I mean you have got to love all the peace and security that we are having now.


A lot of which can be put down to the illegal invasion of Iraq. Compare that to Kosovo, when the decision to act was for the right reason.


word
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 10:02 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
The problem is you're saying very little. We all want politicians with conviction who will act in our nation's interests. You don't seem to be able to say how that would work in any given situation.


I don't have to predicate any outcome. What ever outcome is what it is. You just have to own it.

Quote:
There's no real argument on your part, first you claim the failure of the Iraq war was down to a lack of conviction, too much time wasted on the French and the Arabs. Now when the real reasons for the fiasco are pointed out you accuse me of putting words in your mouth.


I wasn't making any argument, That was you.
When some one says either one or the other they aren't deciding the manner in which they will act they are just saying own up to what ever manner you do act.

Quote:
The problem is, you don't have a coherent argument, other than meaningless platitudes about conviction and the romantic concept of going it alone. You seem quite divorced from the realities of global politics.


Because I disagree with current politics I don't have a coherent argument, as if your antiquated ideas have worked? Like global bicker? Perhaps it is you that is divorced from reality.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 10:04 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:
There are three doors A, B and C. You are asked to pick one. You pick one and what ever transpires you accept and live with no matter the consequences and with out regret. You show leadership qualities. That's it in a nut shell.


since you didn't ask what was behind each door when that information was available to you - you are an idiot and have created a disaster for millions of people
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 10:06 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:

I don't need facts for an opinion





argome321 wrote:
Quote:

Do you have facts for your reasoning?



other people need facts but you don't?
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 10:06 am
@ehBeth,
Quote:
the American misadventures in the Middle East over the past 35 years were in the best interest of the US? really?


Perhaps, perhaps not, but whatever the decision we should own up to them.
0 Replies
 
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 10:09 am
@ehBeth,
Quote:
you have no business taking action on a stance when your country does not understand the situation - ignoring experts who do know something about the situation just makes you look stupid - and in the case of the US and the Middle East has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people


I agree.
But my personal opinion don't matter. I'm talking the leadership of the USA
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 10:10 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:
Let each country be responsible for their own actions.


that would be a great piece of advice if the US had taken it 25/30/35 years ago

the world is paying for American lack of responsibility in the Middle East
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 10:12 am
@ehBeth,
Quote:
other people need facts but you don't?


In my opinion I think Blue is a great color

what facts do i need?
 

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