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U.S. War on Terrorism: Change in World Opinion?

 
 
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 05:39 am
@argome321,
I would have thought that the United States Would have learned something from the VietNam fiasco. I thought the US would learn that either you fight a war to win or you don't fight at all.

The south east Asia and the Middle East conflicts are a no win situations. One day your in bed with one person and the next day you're trying to kill each other?

There is a song by the late Rick Nelson titled Garden Party.

I went to a garden party to reminisce with my old friends
A chance to share old memories and play our songs again
When I got to the garden party, they all knew my name
No one recognized me, I didn't look the same

But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself

And people came from miles around, everyone was there
Yoko brought her walrus, there was magic in the air
An' over in the corner, much to my surprise
Mr. Hughes hid in Dylan's shoes wearing his disguise

But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself

Played them all the old songs, thought that's why they came
No one heard the music, we didn't look the same
I said, hello to "Mary Lou", she belongs to me
When I sang a song about a honky-tonk, it was time to leave

But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself

Someone opened up a closet door and out stepped Johnny B. Goode
Playing guitar like a-ringin' a bell and lookin' like he should
If you gotta play at garden parties, I wish you a lotta luck
But if memories were all I sang, I rather drive a truck

But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself

An' it's all right now, yeah, learned my lesson well
You see, ya can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself



Read more: Rick Nelson - Garden Party Lyrics | MetroLyrics
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 05:45 am
@izzythepush,
Which seems very simplistic considering any attack on N. Korea would
Quote:
necessitate the use of Korean and Japanese bases. You're failing to deal with reality, and that is that the US is no longer capable of acting unilaterally without the support of allies, unless you're talking about invading Mexico, Canada or a tiny island nation. Your inability to bomb Syria without the use of British bases says as much, and your quasi unilateral decision to invade Iraq is the reason why so many of your allies are reluctant to go along with any future action.

If America was so powerful you wouldn't have needed to form NATO or the UN.


You sure do infer alot.

where do I advocate any action? Show me.

Why don't you pay attention to what I say instead of what you think I say, which is really more a reflection of your own thinking and fears it appears.

Japaneses bases...uh? Isn't the US responsible for the defense of Japan?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 05:53 am
@argome321,
The Middle East can be resolved, but only by consensus with other nations, and by understanding what's going on. Iraq was the spectacular failure because it was a half arsed job from the beginning. There was no plan for what to do after the fall of Saddam and Dubya didn't even know there was a difference between Sunni and Shia.

You dropped more bombs on Vietnam than fell on the whole of Europe during WW2, if that's not fighting to win I don't know what is. You lost because America wasn't/isn't powerful enough to fight a such a war on its own especially when the Vietnamese were being supplied and trained by China and Russia.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 06:12 am
@argome321,
You're saying that America should act unilaterally without concern for the opinions of other nations. You've kept the circumstances pretty vague, so I'm trying to pin you down to specifics.

When you're given a specific scenario you have no answers.

I have paid attention to what you've said, and you've got unrealistic expectations of the power of America, and you don't seem to appreciate the logistics of carrying out action without the support of other nations.

argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 06:17 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
The Middle East can be resolved, but only by consensus with other nations, and by understanding what's going on. Iraq was the spectacular failure because it was a half arsed job from the beginning. There was no plan for what to do after the fall of Saddam and Dubya didn't even know there was a difference between Sunni and Shia.


And when do you think a consensus will be reached? Are you crossing your fingers on that one..holding your breath?

The Vietnam was a war where the American public and world wide views were split. There was always China hovering lurking over head. We got into a war where we didn't know how to get out of, so we fought it half ass and were never truly and totally committed.

The lesson I'm talking about is where you decide to fight to win all out or you don't get involved.

But again, my statement is about deciding with conviction and the guts to live with that decision and not about choosing one action over another.

You can give me all and any scenario you like but this isn't about any particular action and it's results.

It's about deciding definitively and having the guts to lead and not having a million and one voices in your head trying to satisfy all of them...because you can't.


izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 06:18 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:
where do I advocate any action? Show me.


Like a said you're very vague, so I gave you a scenario. Your immediate response was to say you don't care what the S. Koreans and Japanese think, now you seem to be conceding that you would need to use Japanese bases.

You can't have it both ways, either America is powerful enough to act unilaterally, or it needs the help of allies.

Why don't you give me a scenario where you could take unilateral action against something other than an American or island nation, and say how this could be achieved without the help of allies.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 06:19 am
I was a teenager while the United States was involved in Vietnam. At the time, I felt that most of our allies were not in favor of what we were doing. In the case of Iraq, the consensus of world opinion was definitely against U.S. actions.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 06:22 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:
And when do you think a consensus will be reached?


When America stops using its UN security council veto to stymie everything that supports Palestinian self determination. When America has a serious talk with all the nations about how to deal with fundamentalist terror groups, and when America puts peace and stability in the region ahead of its own arms industry and its thirst for oil.
timur
 
  2  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 06:26 am
Izzythepush wrote:
When America stops using its UN security council veto to stymie everything that supports Palestinian self determination. When America has a serious talk with all the nations about how to deal with fundamentalist terror groups, and when America puts peace and stability in the region ahead of its own arms industry and its thirst for oil.

Which is to say it's not happening soon.

At least, as long as people like Argome will have such ridiculous stances on how to achieve peace..
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 06:28 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
You're saying that America should act unilaterally without concern for the opinions of other nations. You've kept the circumstances pretty vague, so I'm trying to pin you down to specifics.

When you're given a specific scenario you have no answers.

I have paid attention to what you've said, and you've got unrealistic expectations of the power of America, and you don't seem to appreciate the logistics of carrying out action without the support of other nations.


I don't know why or what you don't understand.

It isn't about scenarios. It isn't about any particular action one way or the other.

Perhaps if you can step outside of your head head for a moment you may see what I am saying.

I have no expectations of the power of America, as you put it, one way or the other.
I only desire that America will decide, what ever it decides, with conviction based on what is best for America, despite what ever else the rest of the world thinks.

The problem I see, and I reiterate this point, is that there are too many chiefs all with different agendas.
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 06:33 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
I was a teenager while the United States was involved in Vietnam. At the time, I felt that most of our allies were not in favor of what we were doing. In the case of Iraq, the consensus of world opinion was definitely against U.S. actions.


I was in junior high school when I became aware of the Vietnam war and by the time I was graduating High school I was drafted. I didn't serve due to student deferment. It was a very long for a war that linger with out resolve
because of politics and a split nation.
0 Replies
 
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 06:38 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
When America stops using its UN security council veto to stymie everything that supports Palestinian self determination. When America has a serious talk with all the nations about how to deal with fundamentalist terror groups, and when America puts peace and stability in the region ahead of its own arms industry and its thirst for oil.


thus you are making my point because all involve are doing so for their own agenda and that is the problem and why there will never be a consensus.

I have no problem if the US leaves the region. I just want a definitive decision.
I don't care how unstable a region is, that in and of it self doesn't mean you can't make a definitive stance if you have the guts to do so.
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 06:42 am
@timur,
Quote:
At least, as long as people like Argome will have such ridiculous stances on how to achieve peace..


and it seems your position is to stay the course and the continuous and wasteful fighting.

I mean you have got to love all the peace and security that we are having now.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 06:50 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:
I mean you have got to love all the peace and security that we are having now.


A lot of which can be put down to the illegal invasion of Iraq. Compare that to Kosovo, when the decision to act was for the right reason.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 06:51 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:
I have no problem if the US leaves the region.


You might when you can no longer afford to fill up your petrol tank.
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 06:51 am
@argome321,
I did not realize the concept of choosing with conviction was such a difficult concept to grasp for some.

Let me try it this way.

There are three doors A, B and C. You are asked to pick one. You pick one and what ever transpires you accept and live with no matter the consequences and with out regret. You show leadership qualities. That's it in a nut shell.
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 06:53 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
You might when you can no longer afford to fill up your petrol tank.


Then I would have to live with it.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 06:54 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:
and it seems your position is to stay the course and the continuous and wasteful fighting.


I imagine Timur, like me, was opposed to the illegal invasion of Iraq from the beginning.

Putting Blair and Dubya in the Hague to face charges of war crimes might help persuade the various antagonists the West really is serious about peace.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 06:57 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:

I did not realize the concept of choosing with conviction was such a difficult concept to grasp for some.


It's a very simple concept, you're the one who seems to have problems dealing with the realities of world politics and diplomacy.

There was a lot of conviction leading up to the illegal war in Iraq, and that was a total screw up.
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2015 07:00 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:
I only desire that America will decide, what ever it decides, with conviction based on what is best for America, despite what ever else the rest of the world thinks.


Hasn't it always?

Quote:
America does decide, what ever it decides, with conviction based on what is best for rich Americans, despite what ever else the rest of the world, or America, thinks.


Fixed.
0 Replies
 
 

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