Will the West Survive?

In truth, I don't mind at all. We all love reading your informed posts on history.

By the way, for anyone who would contend that sacking Rome was evidence that "barbarian" Goths were overrunning the empire: The Romans claimed the city was founded in April, 724 BCE (see Titus Livius, Ad Urbe Condite--From the Foundation of the City). For a little over two hundred years, until about 500 BCE, they had "kings," the Tarquins. The last of these, Tarquinius Superbus (Tarquin the Proud) overreached himself, and was expelled. It was then that the Senate established the system of electing two Consuls each year. The Tuscans (usually called Etruscans) were not happy about this, and made war on the Romans for centuries. (It is likely that the "Tarquin Kings" were actually Tuscan administrators appointed by the government of the Tuscan city of Tarquinia, in southern Etruria, a member of the Etruscan League.) In about 390 BCE, the Tuscans, now desparate to contain a power which waxed as theirs waned, made a deal with a Keltic people known to them as the Gauls. With their army, the Tuscans defeated the Consular armies, and occupied the city of Rome. The Gauls sacked the city, and killed many members of the Senate. The survivors held out on the Capitoline hill in the temples of Juno and Jupiter. Disease began to spread among the Gauls, who were constitutionally disinclined to conduct an occupation. The result of the sack of Rome then was the establishment of an empire which lasted for another 1900 years.

not to be a wise ass...but at the rate we're going I find it very difficult to believe we're (USA) going to be around at the top of the food chain anywhere nearly that long......

SetaSetanta writes


Well I started reading Gibbons once and don't think I finished it. My 'summary' is based on an awful lot of material. Where do you get your summary? Walter Williams also has some pretty impressive credentials, so I wouldn't be too hasty on dismissing him either.

I will concede Setanta's superior grasp of history. I fail to see how what I said is in conflict with what he said however.

Foxfyre,

I would like to hear your response to what I wrote about barbarians and throwing Christians to the lions. Do you still say that the barbarians of the first century are comparible to the barbarians of today?

I still submit the Romans were the bad guys, not the barbarians.

Foxfyre - Setanta's summaries come from his big scary brain, under his lovely curls :wink:

ebrown throwing the Christians to the lions wasn't as widespread as is protrayed in the movies, but it certainly did happen. I would put it on a par with Saddam lowering people feet first into acid baths or some of the tortures that were inflicted on prisoners just prior to and during WWII.

As far as the 'barbarians' are concerned, that is shorthand for numerous different peoples who encroached on and occupied different parts of the Roman Empire at different times. These incorporated their own cultures and established their own place. I would expect Setanta would find that simplistic, but not incorrect. Barbarian in this context is not intended to be derogatory but indicative of nomadic ethnic tribes who moved themselves in.

That is a long term thing; however, if we keep spending like we have over the last 3+ years over imperialism and Europe is able to hobble together a successful rival plus a revival of Russia and Japan added to China and a surging India

Well, America is making the same mistakes today that brought down Empires of the past........

What is important to note in this article is that the author proposes a vision of monolithic Islam which is out to get the West. This is religious bigotry, and a call for crusade. The Muslim world is no more a monolithic entity with a single-minded purpose to destroy us than is the Christian world a monolithic entity bent on the destruction of Islam. The world views and goals of Muslims in Morrocco on the Atlantic shores of Africa cannot reasonably be said to be consonant with the views and goals of Muslims in Indonesia, on the other side of the globe.

The terrorists who wrap themselves in the green flag of Islam while committing their murders are no more representative of all Muslims than Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVey are representative of all Christians. That the policies of the United States have deeply offended the Arab world is not to be doubted. That this means that all Muslims are out to get us is an absurdity, and a dangerous one. This is base, disgusting demagoguery, which calls on us all to identify the "other," the Muslim, as a dangerous enemy worthy only of extermination. This is simplistic drivel which invites one to abandon a reasonable consideration of why many Muslims resent us; it is a ranting invitation to holy war to exterminate many thousands more innocents, assuring generations more of fanatical young men and women who can be manipulated into attacking us. In the final analysis, this author is no better than Bin Laden, and just as dangerous if people are stupid enough to buy into this crap.

Will Setanta survive A2K in the West?

Here's hopin' . . .

Good to have you back!

Thanks . . . oh, and, it ain't brain surgery neither . . .

I thought it were the Old Greeks who had invented "barbarian", with which they actually meant the Persians.

Arrogance coupled with a sense of entitlement to a superior position are what bring empires down, and we have an overabundance of both.

Acq, don't forget hubristic incompetence--that's a biggie, too . . .

At least we ain't drinking wine out of lead pitchers.

The western Roman Empire faded over a period of 4 centurys beginning with the collapse of the centralized authority in the late 5th century. The local civil and military authority hung on into the 6th century. Culturally the empire survived into the 9th century only to wane under the destructive raids of Magyar and Scandinavian barbarians. The resulting chaos resulted in the collapse of centralized authority and created feudalism. An intensely local phenomenon that was built around a nested hierarchy of patron client relations.

For a good thumbnail review of late antiquity/early middle ages see the following link End of Early Middle Ages