4
   

Dassault Rafales sold at last

 
 
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 06:46 am
@Olivier5,
I get it, you don't like the article, but it is written by an Indian journalist who feels his country is being ripped off. That was just the first example. This is the second.

Quote:
There have been allegations that pressure from the highest political level, and possibly a huge under-the-table payment, dictated India's decision to plump for the Rafale jet fighter made by Dassault of France. The order is for 126 fighter-jets worth an immense $11 billion. These jets are meant to replace the country's ageing fleet of MiG 21s, which make up one-third of the Air force's jet fighters.

Collateral evidence has emerged, through research by Subramanian Swamy and our searches on Google and other internet sites, that blood relations and close friendships at the top political level probably tilted the scales in favour of the Rafale. There is as yet no evidence that Dassault paid a huge bribe to India's first family, though the possibility cannot be ruled out, given the current milieu in India.

It is a tangled skein and one end of the thread begins with T Anantha Krishnan, popularly called TAK. He is the son of a Sri Lankan Tamil immigrant, who was an indentured plantation worker.TAK was reputedly close to K Padbanabhan, money manager of the LTTE, who is now in jail in Sri Lanka.

TAK has no further role in this tale, except that his wife is Latchoumie Marie Helene, born to a white French father who belongs one of the ancient families of France and a Tamil mother. She is popularly known as Mme TAK and Latchoumie is probably the Frenchified version of Lakshmi, a common Tamil name...

Mme TAK, is the owner of La Fantaisie, a very big art gallery and auction house in Paris, which can be described as the Christie's of France. Carla Bruni, the Italian wife of Nicholas Sarkozy who was the French president when the Rafale deal was inked, is a partner in this venture for the past two years.

Mme TAK is also owner of a sophisticated music recording house in Paris. Carla, who is also a pop singer, uses Mme TAK's studios for registering and issuing her albums.

She counts among her good friends Sonia Gandhi, Rahul Gandhi and Sonia's sisters who frequently visit her in France and stay in her chateau. Rahul Gandhi stayed with her when he went to France in early 2012.

Mme TAK owns vineyards in northern Colombia with jointly with rich Colombian families called Bettancourt and Katalli. Rahul Gandhi's former live in girl-friend Veronique is connected to the Kattallis.

Now comes the interesting point. Mme TAK is one of the shareholders of Dassault. Carla Bruni is Italian born. She is related by marriage to Sonia Gandhi: Carla is a cousin of Sonia Gandhi's sister's daughter-in-law.

Discussions are still going on between India's defence ministry and Dassault, particularly on the 'offset' condition under which around 50% of the aircraft will have to be built by Indian manufacturers.

A couple of months ago, Moneylife wrote on the choice of the Rafale. The headline of the story was "Look out, Mr Antony, Little Brother is watching you".


http://www.wikileaks-forum.com/corruptionanti-corruption/124/the-curious-rafale-deal-the-largest-arms-deal-ever-signed/12063/

Arms sales to developing nations/autocratic nations have a history of corruption, and I don't think the Rafale deal will prove otherwise.

As for your interview with the ambassador I'll take it as a pinch of salt. India is a fully engaged member of the Commonwealth, whereas Rwanda has cut ties with its French colonial masters, dropped French as a language, in favour of English, and applied to join the Commonwealth.
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 07:03 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
The nickname "miracle" appears to have been used, but not for the reasons you mentioned. More probably because of the good quality of the aircraft, or because of the fact that they last flew as part of an aerobatic team

Wild guesses . I can tell you it was called a Miracle unofficially by the crews who worked on them because they thought it a miracle if it came back . That is hardly true, but crews like to criticise their aircraft in a somewhat fond manner . Later, the aerobatic team chose the name Miracle .

Like a lot of supersonic delta wing aircraft of that era, it had the glide ratio of a brick . If anything went wrong with the sole engine, the plane was lost and the pilot had to eject . That was the main reason we didnt get the F-16 . The F-15 was considered too expensive and the F-18 was considered a compromise between a tactical bomber and a fighter so we went with it .

The Mirage was considered unsuitable for ground attack in Vietnam so we leased the F-4 whilst waiting for the F-111 .

There is no doubt about the superiority of the Mirage as a fighter against MiGs . Its track record with the Israelis testifies to that .
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 07:26 am
@izzythepush,
Dude! Rwanda never was a French colony; it was held by the Belgians. How misinformed can you get?

I don't take op-ed as evidence, sorry. Even your article says "There is as yet no evidence that Dassault paid a huge bribe to India's first family, though the possibility cannot be ruled out, given the current milieu in India." And beside, none of the "facts" in there check out. E.g. I of course heard about Christie's but never ever heard of "La Fantaisie". If it exists, it is a obscure gallery. Many other allegations are not verifiable.

So we are talking of conspiracy theories here. You are a sore loser, but more importantly, you are incapable of detecting obvious tale tell of conspiracy hogwash, such as fabricated facts. You didn't check anything in that article, you just googled and copy-pasted. Boom. That's evidence for you.

You are no better than Ionus: an uninformed rabid anti-French bigot. In fact you are worse than he is, because he can admit to being wrong once in a long while.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 07:32 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Dude! Rwanda never was a French colony; it was held by the Belgians. How misinformed can you get?
Actually, the former and only colonial power, Germany, lost possession of Rwanda ("Deutsch Ostafrika") during the First World War and the territory was then placed under Belgian administration [League of Nations mandate (1922-1945), UN trust territory (1945-1961)].
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 07:33 am
@Ionus,
Find a reputable site that explains the nickname "Miracle" other than by the aero-acrobatic team called "The Miracles", or shut up. That team would NEVER had chosen such a name if it had been pejorative. It'd be like calling yourselves: "The Crashers". How much more jinks can one get?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 07:45 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Thanks, I didn't know that. Burundi too?
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 07:46 am
@Olivier5,
I am telling you what I know from my life's experience so you can go take a flying leap . Your assertions are based on trying to dismiss what you dont like..well stiff ! It is true .

Quote:
That team would NEVER have chosen such a name
Oh, so now we are to believe that because you have an agenda ... How many ground crew or pilots in those Squadrons do you know ? How many of the aerobatic team called the Miracles have you met ? Do you know where Australia is on the map ?
Walter Hinteler
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 07:50 am
@Olivier5,
The very same.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 08:08 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
I am telling you what I know from my life's experience

You mean somebody told you that once, and that's all you got.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 08:47 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
You are an uninformed rabid anti-French bigot.


Don't be so ridiculous. You started this thread with these words.

Quote:
In the meantime, it seems the Typhoon-Eurofighters are often grounded due to some design flaw or another... That's what the Brits call a 'lemon', right? ;-)


You wanted to cause trouble, and when you don't like what you get you throw hissy fit.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 08:51 am
@Ionus,
Already on 26 Feb 1964, the Mirage was called "The Miracle" (and "The French Lady") [source] - that's before the first RAAF-Mirage crashed (07 December 64, A3-1 crashed 2 km from Avalon) [source]
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 09:07 am
@Olivier5,
Found a detailed history of the RAAF Mirages here: The RAAF Mirage Story, compiled by Wing Commander M. R. Susans. It's dated 1988, when they decommissioned the aircraft and was written with a view to draw lessons from the experience. I cannot resist quoting it extensively, sorry....

The foreword gives an overview of the book, and goes a bit beyond to touch on wider strategic issues such as the development of a domestic defense industry in cooperation with the French:
Quote:
There is ample mention of the Mirage's multi-role deficiencies, in particular for service in the Australian area. Yet the aircraft did a first class job as events transpired. The RAAF moved into new operational and technical regimes. [...] the spin- off covered a wider range of airframe, engine and electronic capabilities than we had expected. Cooperation between 'them and us' hurdled old barriers. The infrastructure grew in its widest sense; without the Mirage experience we'd not be capable of tackling new technology: building it, operating it and fixing it. Industry would not be so successful in meeting our full share of military and civil offset opportunities, or in winning additional contracts in the fiercely competitive international free-bid arenas. So we grew up all round.

Ted Bennet's and Pierce Talbot's final statement appeals to me enormously - 'the most successful aircraft project undertaken'. [...]

On reflection, I believe we failed the fighter force by not remedying deficiencies identified early in the aircraft's life (for example, providing an inertial system) and through being forced to reduce our permanent liaison staff in France, which I'm sure contributed to our slowness to stay on top of serious technical problems — another example of 'penny wise and pound foolish'. This neglect became more pressing as we extended and re-extended the Mirage's operational life when the F/A-18 date of introduction slipped several years. Notwithstanding these strictures and millstones, morale stood up when times were tough; the technicians worked harder to keep the Mirage flying, and the pilots continued to fly them hard and enjoy it. So passes an important era in RAAF history, and a much respected aircraft.

J.W Newham
Air Marshal
Farrer, ACT
September 1988


It does not explain the "Miracle" nickname, but it quotes it once in a context that speaks of her speed and flying "feel":
Quote:
Taxying the Mirage always had a hint of being a slightly untidy affair due to the lack of nosewheel steering, and turning the 11,000 kg plus fighter was a case of differential braking and sufficient engine power to keep her moving while under brakes. However, any doubts about the Mirage's handling on the ground were soon forgotten when the "Miracle" blasted into her element with an ear-splitting crescendo from the afterburner. [...] The Mach 2 flight always proved an exhilarating experience. A maximum rate climb in a clean Mirage had you at 36,000 ft and 0.9 Mach in two and a half to three minutes from brakes release on the runway. [...] in just under 6 minutes and 400 gallons from sitting on the end of the runway, you would arrive at Mach 2 at 50,000 feet. (p.121-122)


About the fatalities:
Quote:
Sadly, 14 pilots lost their lives flying the RAAF Mirage. By far the largest percentage of the fatalities (36%) were night related accidents; all were operating below 5000 feet in high workload situations on dark, rather than moonlit nights. However on a more positive note, all 26 known ejection attempts were successful, with one pilot successfully ejecting twice. (p.124)


Final paragraph:
Quote:
As a final word on the Pilots' Viewpoint of the Mirage IIIO, I could do no better than quote a recent anecdote related by Jorge Washington. "In 1986 I felt deep satisfaction that my love of the Mirage was not alone when the final Mirage Conversion Course was about to commence and the group of young fighter pilot hopefuls were asked whether they wanted to be on the last Mirage course or the first F/A-18 Hornet course - to a man they chose the Mirage!"
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 09:36 am
@izzythepush,
It's a verifiable fact that the Eurofighter has been grounded several times due to design flaws. In contrast, all you got about the Rafale deals is a bunch of very far-fetched conspiracy theories, and no evidence whatsoever.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 10:58 am
@Olivier5,
I've only just scratched the surface. The truth is a lot murkier than the "everything is wonderful" fantasy you're peddling.

Quote:
BJP leader Subramanian Swamy on Saturday threatened to go to court against the deal to buy Rafale fighter aircraft from France if the government does not heed to his warning. Terming the deal “corrupt”, Swamy said it will bring bad name to the party. The senior BJP leader said no one in the world is buying the Rafale planes and in the past countries which signed an MoU to procure the aircraft have scrapped the deal.

“No one is buying the planes in the country. Dassault (Aviation- the company which manufactures the fighter jets) says if India does not buy these planes then they will wind up. Many counties like Switzerland signed an MoU, but later cancelled it,” Swamy said. The senior BJP leader added that if the government wanted to please France, then it should have bought the company, which is anyway running into losses. “If the government does not agree to this, then I have to go to the court. It is a corrupt deal and can spoil the name of the party. “These babus (bureaucrats) are giving wrong advice to Prime Minister Narendra Modi. The defence ministry’s opinion is also not this (to buy the planes). Modi had on Friday said in Paris that India will buy 36 Rafale fighter jets in “fly-away” condition from France at the earliest by “keeping in view the critical operational necessity of fighter aircraft in India.”


http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/bjp-leader-subramanian-swamy-threatens-to-move-court-against-rafale-deal/
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 11:06 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
The truth is a lot murkier than the "everything is wonderful" fantasy you're peddling.

I never said everything is wonderful, just that there is no evidence for your accusations. Find something more than empty polemical op-eds, and then we can talk. Otherwise I'm done with you.
0 Replies
 
Vernon of Prague
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 04:17 pm
ya know, oldies, once I was with my friend in army scarp yard and there were some old fighters. I sat into one and was like "wruuuum" and my friend was like "dude, you should stop drinking" But I never listened to him. Drunk Drunk Drunk

oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 08:04 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
Its not meant to dogfight .

Well, it can't dogfight. There were apparently people who did mean it to dogfight though. I think the original hope was maneuverability equal to an F-16.


Ionus wrote:
It can shoot down an F-16 way before a dogfight range and the F-16 and its radars and weapons systems cant find the F-35 . In other tests it outshot 3 x F-15's .

The F-35 still has a number of technical hurdles to overcome before this becomes a practical reality.

They may not be insurmountable, but so far they remain unsolved.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 08:06 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
I know (and stated) the F-35 is not meant to dogfight. But it may never live up to its expectations either. Too many glitches. Too expensive to buy and maintain. And if its stealth features ever are broken by the Russians (as they probably will at some point), it's gona loose much of its tactical advantages.

Those are not the reason the F-35 has a problem.

The F35's problem is that it is designed to be a modernized Harrier Jump Jet. By being so designed, the F-35 essentially has no dogfighting ability whatsoever.

The F-35's defenders propose that the F-35's sensors will allow early detection of enemy planes, and that the built-in communications network will mean that once an enemy is spotted by a single plane, all friendly planes will immediately have a weapons lock on it.

However, this system currently is not working well. Currently most of the F-35's sensors are directed at ground targets. And none of the short range missiles that are currently approved for the F-35 are capable of receiving targeting information from the aircraft.

These might not be insurmountable problems, but so far no one has managed to fix them.

Stealth for the F-35 is a complicated issue that will have to wait for another post to address.


Olivier5 wrote:
Been regularly updated and is now considered generation "4.5". Also, since none of the 5th generation jets are up and running yet (apart from the F-22), the Rafale is currently without rival (except the F-22).

I think the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Saab Gripen, and the F-18 E/F Super Hornet are all reasonable competitors to the Rafale.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 09:17 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walt, you are out of your depth of water . When I was employed on a base that flew Miracles, they were called that because of the maintenance problems, glide ratio, and crashes . We could argue about the origins of the name Miracle forever, or if your sources are even correct but I wouldnt tell you you were wrong if you told me something based on your experience with the ocean . I wouldnt be so stupid as to say I have a quote from the internet that tells me your experience is wrong . Get It ??
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 09:21 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
You mean somebody told you that once, and that's all you got.
No . I mean I know the men from those squadrons . I am repeating what they told me . You mean you dont want it to be true so you are dragging everything into it that you can, but you are proving yourself very biased . We went through this before...every French man, every French company, every French politician is perfect because you are French . There is no corruption anywhere in France because you are French . Are there idiots in France, because you are an idiot .
 

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