4
   

Dassault Rafales sold at last

 
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 10:53 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Almost every 50's and 60's fast jet had what would now be considered unacceptable loss rates (= very short life).


Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 10:59 am
@izzythepush,
I do, but I see no connection with the Rafale sales. Honestly, you should know better than assume nations buy their weapon systems based on football world cups... That's really far-fetched, as conspiracy theories go.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 11:00 am
@Olivier5,
Not just that, but it's all part of a package.

Nevertheless I think it's still a bit early to crow about something that may well come back and bite France on the arse.
Walter Hinteler
 
  0  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 11:02 am
@izzythepush,
Well, 118 German Starfighter-pilots died when the aircraft crashed.

And there are the Lockheed bribery scandals
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 11:04 am
@izzythepush,
So you have nothing to back up your accusations that the Rafale sales have been oiled by the world cup vote... Pure libel.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 11:05 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I know, that's what the album's about. Germany's purchase of the starfighter and the resultant casualties. Rock songs interspersed with comic sketches.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 11:06 am
@Olivier5,
I've not said anything libellous, just pointed out areas of concern, and there's a lot of area out there.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 11:15 am
@izzythepush,
Since I've been engaged in saving one (not German) pilot in Baltic Sea and was acquainted with one (German) widow, I'm not in the mood to watch comic sketches about it.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 11:28 am
@izzythepush,
I have posted proof of massive corruption in UK Eurofighter sales. You have posted "concerns" that seem very far-fetched, if not downright conspiracist.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 11:59 am
@Olivier5,
From 2004. Cave Vendor.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 12:12 pm
@izzythepush,
The sale and the scandal happened in 2006, nine little years ago.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 02:48 pm
@Olivier5,
I've not really looked, but this is what a quick google search turned up.

Quote:
The French foreign minister Laurent Fabius’s one-point agenda when he visited New Delhi was to seal the deal for Rafale, a warplane apparently fitting IAF’s idea of a Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) in the service’s unique typology, which includes “light” and “heavy” fighter planes as well, used by no other air force in the world. Alas, the first whiff of corruption led the previous defence minister, A K Antony, to seize up and shut shop, stranding the deal at the price negotiation committee stage. It is this stoppage Fabius sought to unclog.


http://www.newindianexpress.com/columns/Why-Rafale-is-a-Big-Mistake/2014/07/25/article2346825.ece
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 05:59 pm
@izzythepush,
This article is polemic and not factual. There was no corruption in that MRCA tender; it was heavily scrutinized.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 07:54 pm
@Olivier5,
Embarrassed I found a site that said we lost 42 aircraft and that we had bought 50....in fact we had bought 116 . So 42 out of 116 aircraft crashed, most with loss of life . My figures were WAY off . 55 were sold to PAF, so not most but under half...the remainder were corrosion, end of fatigue life, donated to museums, etc but all were unflyable .

It was because of the losses, and the belief that one engine and distance between landing zones in Australia was a major factor, that we only buy twin engine aircraft in future .
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 07:55 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
According to this website, your 80% seem to be exaggerated.
Not exaggerated, but in error . I should have used a more reliable web site such as Olivier5 found .
Walter Hinteler
 
  0  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 10:49 pm
@Ionus,
Well, mine came up as the first result with a google search.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 05:56 am
@Walter Hinteler,
And mine didnt . Dont you think it might depend on the wording ?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 06:04 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
Dont you think it might depend on the wording ?
Don't you think it depends on
a) what you are looking for (and thus the wording),
and
b) what (reliable) sources you search at?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 06:13 am
@Ionus,
Walter and I found exactly the same site after doing what could have been slightly different searches. An error on the total number of plane purchased, huh? How hard is that data to get right, really?

Anyway, from the site bot Walt and I found (http://www.adf-serials.com.au/3a3.htm), it appears that 15 RAAF pilots lost their lives while flying the Mirage III, most of those during collisions with other aircrafts, land or water, thus probably as a result of pilot error. Comparatively to other planes from the same era, that aircraft was sound and secure; it was a workhorse. According to the RAAF Museum website:

Quote:
The Mirage saw longer service in our front line than any other fighter. Despite the original estimated design fatigue life of only 1500 hours, some Australian Mirages flew over 4000 hours. Over forty aircraft were lost in flying accidents, but those who flew it held the type in high regard. Although the 'Miracle' has left our skies, many examples remain on display at museums around Australia.


The nickname "miracle" appears to have been used, but not for the reasons you mentioned. More probably because of the good quality of the aircraft, or because of the fact that they last flew as part of an aerobatic team: "Several Mirage aerobatic teams were also formed during its service with No 77 Squadron. Best known were the Deltas in 1971, followed by the Miracles in 1976" (RAAF museum site).
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jul, 2015 06:27 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

This article is polemic and not factual. There was no corruption in that MRCA tender; it was heavily scrutinized.

Come to think of it, that may be precisely why the Rafale won: the Russians and the Brits could not bribe their way into victory.

I once interviewed the Indian ambassador in Kabul about something totally different. He walked me back to the entrance of his vast residence after the interview, and I asked him what he thought of the Rafale deal that had been inked not too long before. He looked surprised by the change of topic and retorted: "Ah, is that the Frenchman in you asking?... That was a very courageous decision, I think. There was strong pressure from our old colonial masters..."
0 Replies
 
 

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