Sad, That A2K's Gone

Judging by the date it was written, I suspect this was Oristar's attempt at April Fool's humor.

Alas, Oss, alas

Not at all, sincerely.
Joe Nation, JTT, David... seem not to come back.

Yep to that. It's normal that people leave and new people come. The place just needs to become more welcoming to newcomers, IMO. As of now, the default reaction is to scold them. Not smart.

Likewise many seem to want to try to drive away all who do not agree with them, further shrinking A2K and further communicating to new people that this is not a welcoming tolerant place. Both those who participate in this behavior as well as those who have not condemned it are most responsible for the decline of A2K.

Not sure that's as large a problem as the bashing of newcomers, but the basic idea is the same: it is in our interest to suffer contradiction. That's where the fun is, at least to me.

I realize that for some A2Kers, this is NOT a place to debate and disagree and argue, but a place to meet with old friends, a sort of retirement club. From this POV newcomers are probably a nuisance.

the impression I got from those who wanted to turn this place into a Facebook clone was that they were after networking with new friends as well as keeping up with old. THeir motives were a bit opposed to people like me, who come here partly to practice our arguing skills but also to explore important questions of the day. One of the things that was so great was that there was a wide mix of smart people here, so lots of different ideas and views could be explored, to the extent that the socal butterflies could be drawn into taking about the questions they were valuable to me. THe people who really work at cross purposes of people like me are the cultural warriors, those who work constantly to cleanse A2K of opposing views. Sadly there are a lot of them, and they seem to have a lot of time to fill up A2K with their hostility. These are the people who are primarily responsible for killing this place.

We saw this dynamic at work early when I got here, when the response to me arguing for lower ages of consent was primarily to be as hostile to me as possible, and to demand that Robert ban me, but to almost never argue the points of the question I raised. It was beneath their dignity to argue that AOC should not be changed. I always wondered if it is such an open and shut question then why not just point out all the ways that my argument is stupid and be done with it? THis never happened.

I agree that there is a conflict between two very different A2K: 1) the debating forum vs. 2) the Facebook-like page to keep in touch with friends. Many of those who oppose original views and open discussions are coming from the second perspective: they want to protect their cozy little "friend space" from nasty argumentative loners like you and me; they have no patience for controversy; it's not what they come here for. They want to socialize.

If only we could share this place. Let the "socialites" occupy certain threads while the "lone wolves" argue their heart's content on other threads...

Butbutbutbut you and your partner enjoy sex in a different way that I do so I can disregard everything else you have to say!

David wanted to talk about guns must of the time so that made me never ever want to hear what else he might have to say!

gunga doesn't believe in evolution so I'd better not find his education threads interesting!

I'm only tolerant of people who agree with me! I'm intolerant of intolerance!

Thumbs up to thumbs downing!

End of discussion!

Absolutely.

We've had really good debaters (no, not me but I pipe up sometimes), and still do have some who are sane-ish at it. The owner here was a very lucid debater when he participated in the forum. Most of us, I dare to think, appreciate considered debating. Some who show up here - it is a world wide web site - may be running into 'debating', or even lengthy discussing, for the first time.

Our problem is the insult culture, which I take as a chicken and egg setup that gets going and takes over. We also have a never-ever-shut-up problem.
(I post too much myself, but not usually all about one subject.)

There are also many (ok, some) who are quite dry with replies from time to time that may debate well in person but not want to get into a free for all here.

What ends up happening is this apparent division, smackdown or nicey. Many people here are more complicated, more interesting, than that if you get to know them.

OK, but do you agree that those who are out to purify this place are the enemy of both? I dont think that the facebook/debater groups are the problem, I think we did coexist relatively well and could have continued to. Robert sided with the facebook people with the new programing, and while it backfired and were certainly in conflict then there was no real reason why A2K had to be one or the other. The facebook people are almost all gone now, to Facebook as I understand it, so we are going to be an ideas place if anything. But make no mistake, it is the crusaders who are the problem, and they tend to be liberals who preach tolerance but who constantly practice extreme intolerance.

Boom, I've been reading the Irish Times lately, trying to find new news sites. Today there was an article on tolerance that I'm almost positive was taken down (could be my computer, again).
I found the comment section pretty one sided (re the Indiana shop situation).
Reminds me oddly of me in my youth..

Names? Who wants to "purify" this place, according to you?

the mocking, the disrespect, the refusing to listen, the refusal to talk with honesty is all part of the bigger problem of the practice of extreme intolerance. Since the new programing took hold the loudest get the most traction, and the loudest have tended to be intolerant assholes, mostly from the left. Only a community effort to shut them down would have worked, but instead most people vacated. Liberals had to stand their ground, they had to object to the intolerance that was coming from fellow Liberals, but they could not be persuaded to do the right thing, to call out members of their tribe for wrong doing.

EDIT: intolerant assholes from the Right needed the same treatment, but there have always been fewer from the Right around here, so they are less of a problem.

I read something the other day about all the hate mail that pizza shop in Indiana has received over saying they wouldn't cater a gay wedding.

Hate mail and death threats in the name of "tolerance"!? A family forced into hiding in the name of "tolerance"!?

No matter how stupid someone's ideas are you'll never get them to change their minds by threatening them. I don't know who the bigger idiots are in stories like this.

We should have known that we were in trouble back in the 80's when it became socially acceptable to shout down speakers on the stage that we did not agree with. This was then almost exclusively a tactic of the left. I cant find my copy at the moment but I am almost sure that the Conservative Bloom in " the closing of the American mind" both objected to this practice and pointed out that the left was operating in direct opposition to their stated beliefs. The ends justify the means is the rationalization, but as I think bloom pointed out if one does not practice the morals and the beliefs that they claim to hold then they are lying, they dont actually hold them.

A lot of what we have seen here these last years is exactly this, a full out effort to shout down, to embarrass and ridicule any speakers who dare give voice to ideas that are not approved of.

EDIT: another rationalization for intolerance has been a combination of "if I feel it then it is true" , " my feelings are caused by you" and "nobody has the right to make me feel bad". Having feelings inside us that we dont like has become justification for attacking other people. This is of course immaturity of the worst sort.

I think you live in your own world view, but you're welcome to it.

I was not aware that I need your permission, and you sure complain a lot for someone who rarely brings arguments and/or evidence to the table to challenge my beliefs.

Drive by insults are widely handed out here by the intolerant. You should aim to do better.

Osso said you live in your own world. How is that an insult? It's important to not insult, but also to not feel needlessly insulted.