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9/11 highjacked aircraft shot out of the skies.

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 03:53 pm
Quote:
Tell me, exactly how many times have you been to Andrews AFB on a weekday to see how many people are around in that Air National Guard unit?


Never. And you?

Quote:
It's standard procedure huh? Really? I have a few thousand friends that would like to know the source of this procedure since they are the people that maintain and fly those interceptor aircraft and they've never heard of any such procedure.


ok so how does it work?

Tell me what happens normally when air traffic control report an aircraft significantly deviating from its flight plan, and unable to get a response or explanation. Please.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 03:59 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
ok so how does it work?

Tell me what happens normally when air traffic control report an aircraft significantly deviating from its flight plan, and unable to get a response or explanation. Please.


Eh, yes, please - since that seems to be totally different to e.g. here.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 04:20 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Never. And you?


A few hundred times.

Quote:
ok so how does it work?

Tell me what happens normally when air traffic control report an aircraft significantly deviating from its flight plan, and unable to get a response or explanation. Please.


If a plane goes off course and the civilian controllers are unable to contact the plane they normally divert another airborne plane in the area to take the 1st look. At the same time they clear the air space around the route the plane is flying and notify any airports in the vicinity of an in-flight emergency and the watch supervisor is notified of the situation.

Prior to 9/11 the watch supervior would coordinate with the regional air traffic handlers who are the ones that make the decision to call FAA HQ or not. The FAA has an emergency response team that monitored progress of the flight and determined the best way to handle the situation. If the Emergency reponse team decided that they needed a military intercept they would contact the Pentagon and the Pentagon Emergency Response team would determine where the closest military installations are and coordinate with them to see if they have an aircraft that can be launched immediately. The Pentagon Team would be the people that would contact NORAD and have them launch planes if that was the best available option (and it usually is). (In the Payne Stewart case you mentioned earlier a military unit happened to have aircraft in the air at the time the call came to them so those planes were sent to check out the situation while other planes were readied and sent up at later stages as the flight progressed.)

Because of some of the issues that came up with 9/11 a few things have changed. Military air traffic controllers didn't use to monitor civilian flights within the US. They now do. This is because when the FAA first notified the military on 9/11 they didn't pass on the coordinates of the plane so the interceptors that were launched didn't know where to find the planes. With the military monitoring they can see the coordinates themselves.

There are also communications systems being built to connect the FAA regional centers directly to the military regional centers to eliminate some of the time lag in getting FAA HQ and the Pentagon to pass info back and forth and the watch supervisor of the military regional facility can direct military aircraft into the air (they can't order a shoot down though!). The military regional centers still don't have direct commuincations with every flying unit in their region so they still rely mostly on the NORAD facilities for intercepts. That will probably continue for the long term because it's extremely expensive to keep alert ready planes and crews available at every single installation.

There is still a lot of discussion about how communications should be tied together post-9/11 and the Bush Administration just took a hit from the 9/11 commission for taking so long on that.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 04:21 pm
Fishin

Steve asked
Quote:
Tell me what happens normally when air traffic control report an aircraft significantly deviating from its flight plan, and unable to get a response or explanation. Please.


Whatever the procedures were on 9/11 I would hope that by this time they have been updated to respond to threats such as these.There must have been some capability availabe since Cheney allegedly gave the order to shoot the airliner down, And in fact, It was reported, he thought that one or is it two had been downed. Was that just another administration pipe dream,Or CYA?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 04:21 pm
Thanks.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 04:28 pm
Steve, I don't know what the policy is now. But formerly, whether military, commercial airliner, or private airplane, any pilot who is seriously off course in any 'suspicious' airspace would soon be acompanied by armed fighter planes and escorted back to the registered flight path or to the nearest airport. In most cases such pilots would also be required to write and submit a lengthy report explaining their deviance from the registered flightpath.

It does take a bit of time for the controller to determine the plane is off course and nonresponsive before the escort planes are scrambled to go get them, and then of course the escort planes need time to get to and identify the errant aircraft.

(This from a local uncle who flew in WWII and subsequently flew for Braniff Airlines.)
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 04:32 pm
Yes thanks Fishin

I'm always ready to take on board first hand knowledge.

Now please tell me in your opinion why things went so wrong at AAFB on 11th September 2001
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 04:45 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Now please tell me in your opinion why things went so wrong at AAFB on 11th September 2001


IMO, nothing went wrong at Andrews AFB because there was nothing to go wrong there.

There were 2 units with airplanes capable of acting as an interceptor - the DC ANG unit and a Marine Corps Reserve unit. Neither was manned and neither had planes that were flight ready. It would have taken 6 to 8 hours to get crews in, prep and arm the planes and get them airborne. If they had had full ground crews and pilots there on hand when they got the call it would have still taken them at least an hour to get planes into the air.

This type of tasking was not and never has been a part of their function at Andrews.
0 Replies
 
the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 04:57 pm
FAA Centers often receive information and make operational decisions
independent of one another. On 9/11, the four hijacked aircraft
were monitored mainly by four of these FAA Air Route Traffic
Control Centers, based in Boston, New York, Cleveland, and Indianapolis.
Each Center thus had part of the knowledge of what was going
on across the system. But it is important to remember that what
Boston Center knew was not necessarily known by the Centers in
New York, Cleveland, or Indianapolis.

Controllers track airliners like the four aircraft hijacked on
9/11 primarily by watching the data from a signal emitted by
the aircraft's transponder equipment. The four aircraft hijacked
on 9/11, like all aircraft traveling above 10,000 feet, were
required to emit a unique transponder signal while in flight.

On 9/11, the terrorists turned off the transponders on three
of the four hijacked aircraft.

With the transponder turned off, it may be possible, although
more difficult, to track an aircraft by its primary radar returns.
A primary radar return occurs when the signal sent from a radar
site bounces off an object in the sky and indicates the presence
of that object. But primary radar returns do not include the
transponder data, which show the aircraft's identity and altitude.
Controllers at Centers rely on transponder signals and usually
do not display primary radar returns on their scopes. But they
can change the configuration of their radar scopes so they can
see primary radar returns. In fact, the controllers did just
that on 9/11 when the transponders were turned off in three of
the four hijacked aircraft. Tower or terminal approach controllers
handle a wider variety of lower-flying aircraft; they often use
primary radar returns as well as transponder signals.

NORAD Mission and Structure

NORAD was, and is, responsible for the air defense of the continental
United States. The threat of Soviet bombers diminished significantly
after the end of the Cold War, and the number of NORAD alert
sites was reduced. On 9/11 there were only seven left in the
United States, each with two fighter aircraft on alert.

All the hijacked aircraft were in one of NORAD's Continental
U.S. sectors, the Northeast Air Defense Sector (also known as
NEADS). NEADS is based in Rome, New York. On 9/11, it could call
on two alert sites, each with one pair of ready fighters. These
were the Otis Air National Guard Base in Cape Cod, Massachusetts
and Langley Air Force Base in Langley, Virginia.

NEADS reported to the Continental Region headquarters in Florida,
which reported to NORAD headquarters, in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

Most FAA centers had a civilian employee to coordinate with NORAD,
for situations like training exercises. The agencies had also
developed protocols for working together in the event of a hijacking.
As they existed on 9/11, the protocols for the FAA to obtain
military assistance from NORAD required multiple levels of notification
and approval at the highest levels of government.

FAA guidance to controllers on hijack procedures assumed that
the aircraft pilot would notify the controller of the hijack
via radio communication or by 'squawking' a transponder code
of '7500'?-the universal code for a hijack in progress. Controllers
would notify their supervisors, who in turn would inform management
all the way up to FAA headquarters in Washington. Headquarters
had a 'hijack coordinator' who was the Director or his designate
of the FAA Office of Civil Aviation Security.

If a hijack was confirmed, procedures called for the hijack coordinator
on duty to contact the Pentagon's National Military Command Center
(NMCC) and to ask for a military 'escort aircraft' to follow
the flight, report anything unusual, and aid search and rescue
in the event of an emergency. The NMCC would then seek approval
from the Office of the Secretary of Defense to provide military
assistance. If there was approval, the orders would be transmitted
down NORAD's chain of command and direct the sector to launch
a fighter escort.

The protocols did not contemplate an intercept. They assumed
the fighter escort would be discreet, 'vectored to a position
five miles directly behind the hijacked aircraft,' where it could
perform its mission to monitor the flight path of the aircraft.

In sum, the protocols in place on 9/11 for the FAA and NORAD
to respond to a hijacking presumed that:

(1) the hijacked aircraft would be readily identifiable and would
not attempt to disappear;

(2) there would be time to address the problem through the appropriate
FAA and NORAD chains of command; and

(3) the hijacking would take the traditional form, not a suicide
hijacking designed to convert the aircraft into a guided missile.

On the morning of 9/11, the existing protocol was unsuited in
every respect for what was about to happen. What ensued was the
hurried attempt to create an improvised defense by officials
who had never encountered or trained against the situation they
faced.
The details of what happened on the morning of September 11 are
complex. But the details play out a simple theme. NORAD and the
FAA were unprepared for the type of attacks launched against
the United States on September 11, 2001. They struggled, under
difficult circumstances, to improvise a homeland defense against
an unprecedented challenge they had never encountered and had
never trained to meet. http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0406/S00204.htm
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2004 06:53 pm
Here is another link I found interesting that answered these questions.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/

I just hope that we have a better plan now in place in case something happens again with less people to go through in order to act in time to try and prevent something from succeeding.
0 Replies
 
 

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