Does everyone agree that we evolved from Africa?

@edgarblythe,

wow, this thread has gone a bit loopy too. Leadfoots still trying to push "irreducible" ID, and some new folks are denying their ancestral simian similarities.

"ancient smiley face", coool.

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

http://guides.library.harvard.edu/c.php?g=310507&p=2072128

Same thing is true about the horseshoe crab.

Quote:
Classification. Horseshoe crabs superficially resemble crustaceans. They belong to a separate subphylum, Chelicerata, and are closely related to arachnids. The earliest horseshoe crab fossils are found in strata from the late Ordovician period, roughly 450 million years ago.

Now if you could find horses and humans and cows fossils that old and unchanged you might have something. Is it is you have squat.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

The ignorant don't want to know.

Don't you see that works both ways? They are thinking "You mean fifteen minutes of instruction makes you that certain?"

In other news, I see that the latest H. Sapiens fossil found in Israel is said to predate the African finds by about 50,000 years. And of course the instant conclusion is 'OMG, they left Africa so much earlier than we thought!"

And 'all that' from a partial jaw bone.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

Now if you could find horses and humans and cows fossils that old and unchanged you might have something. Is it is you have squat.

Right, horseshoe crabs and cockroaches are immune to evolution but the other phyla are not. Is that your story?

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@Leadfoot,

My story is exactly what you have been deliberately or emotionally refusing to understand that has been endlessly explained right here and other threads. Life adapts as presented with environmental changes, making it likelier to survive as species. Some have fit their environment so well it has no real incentive to change. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
The ignorant don't want to know.

Don't you see that works both ways? They are thinking "You mean fifteen minutes of instruction makes you that certain?"

In other news, I see that the latest H. Sapiens fossil found in Israel is said to predate the African finds by about 50,000 years. And of course the instant conclusion is 'OMG, they left Africa so much earlier than we thought!"

And 'all that' from a partial jaw bone.

You seem to believe that my high school class took place in a vacuum. I had already been familiar with the concept before going to high school. In the next 60 years I had opportunity to learn more.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

You seem to believe that my high school class took place in a vacuum. I had already been familiar with the concept before going to high school. In the next 60 years I had opportunity to learn more.

Me too. We just came to different conclusions.

But the 'fifteen minutes on evolution' you mentioned actually is all that most people experience. They just trusted the 'authority of others' to base their conclusions on. That's never a good idea.

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

Quote:

Some have fit their environment so well it has no real incentive to change. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

So I guess fifteen minutes of instruction is all you need to understand evolution after all...

But I find it hard to believe that there is no possibility of an evolutionary advancement that would be of benefit to the horseshoe crab.

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@Leadfoot,

evolution doesnt stop being just because some Wikepedia readers cant tell one species from another. There is a huge clade of all the chelicerates . The remaining 3 families and 4 genera of "horshoe crabs" are are quite varied so that any paleo-anatomist would be able to explain the fairly great differences among em since their origination in the lateOrdovician and their "explosion"of species in the Permian/Trissic border (when they had a common ancestor with Eurypterids and Trilobites who got killed off in the great Permian/Triassic MASS extinction ).

There are hundreds of species of organisms that seem to evolve more slowly , thus giving someone a false impression that evolution is bogus.

If ya did it for a living you wouldnt even bat an eye at the assertion that these species hadnt evolved. (I have two guys on my payroll who are emeritus paleontologists who can tell you from which epoch or age any Latimeria had been deposited.

Cockroaches too, have left many fossil footy prints that show the expansions and contractions of their respiratory systems, wings,cephala, etc etc. We use cockroaches for environmental and temporal "layers". (Some insects are actually important in resource detection

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@Leadfoot,

The horshoe crabs along North America are a single species and are different from those in the Indian and East Asian subcontinents. yet the evolutionary differences occurred after the continents separated and rotated in Post Rodinian times. It takes a knowledge of structural geology AND paleo to see the implications

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
You seem to believe that my high school class took place in a vacuum. I had already been familiar with the concept before going to high school. In the next 60 years I had opportunity to learn more.

Me too. We just came to different conclusions.

But the 'fifteen minutes on evolution' you mentioned actually is all that most people experience. They just trusted the 'authority of others' to base their conclusions on. That's never a good idea.

That class gave nobody an opportunity to get educated, unless it prompted them to look deeper into the matter, on their own. The teacher obviously feared to get into it.

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Some have fit their environment so well it has no real incentive to change. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

So I guess fifteen minutes of instruction is all you need to understand evolution after all...

But I find it hard to believe that there is no possibility of an evolutionary advancement that would be of benefit to the horseshoe crab.

You deftly sidestepped the reference to humans, horses and the like.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

The teacher obviously feared to get into it.

More than that, Until the Epperson nd the repeal of the Butler ACts it was actually forbidden by law to teach evolution in many states. Even after the 60's there were a numbr of hangers on states (like Louisiana ) that refreshed their anti-cience ed requirements and pro Creation "Science" .
This has lasted well into this millenium in many states, witness the fact that a pro ID religious requirement was the subject of the Dover v Kitzmiller Case.

Leadfoot has been sidestepping that entire legal issue since he arrived here a few years ago. First he ignored it , then he denied the whole cultural wars was even significant, then he stated that hed not done any reading for comprehension about the whole subject.
Hes been spot shooting at science itelf claiming that its same evidence but different conclusions .(While that may be argued to be correct if only viewed one evidentiary segment at a time, the overwhelming interconnective underpinning of science's viewpoints requires more than 15 minutes study but is pretty convincing about how evolution in a naturalistic world seems to be mindless, opportunistic, and mostly adaptive at both the genotypic and phenotypic levels).

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@farmerman,

I don't know what the law was in the fifties in California. I just remember how disappointed I was in the class that day.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

You deftly sidestepped the reference to humans, horses and the like.

Not at all. I fully expected you to compare what happened with humans in a tiny fraction of the 450 million years that the horseshoe crab remained virtually unchanged.

Keep in mind all the cataclysmic changes, extinction events, ice ages, etc. that presumably drive evolution, and yet the horseshoe crab and the cockroach stayed the same.

That WAS my point. Did you think I was saying the same was true with humans as with horseshoe crabs?

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@Leadfoot,

As farmerman pointed out, there were changes, not so evident at a casual examination. Didn't you read his post? The drastic changes leading to humans were the result of the same forces. But they started from a different species and reacted in their own unique way. It's not that hard to see.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

The teacher obviously feared to get into it.

That has not changed. Depending on the teacher, it could be for various reasons. Some of them fear that if they stray from the 'just so' story of Darwinian evolution or bring up any inconsistencies in it, they may well find themselves out of a job. Someone will likely accuse them of sneaking religion into the classroom.

Evolution has become the sacred cow dogma that must not be questioned.

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@Leadfoot,

Amazing how you can turn it on its head like that. You know as I do that religion is the sacred cow.

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

Quote:

As farmerman pointed out, there were changes, not so evident at a casual examination. Didn't you read his post? The drastic changes leading to humans were the result of the same forces. But they started from a different species and reacted in their own unique way. It's not that hard to see.

Oh good grief, you want to compare minor changes like that over 450 million years that takes an expert to identify with the emergence and death of entire species like dinosaurs and literally hundreds of others?

Don’t make me laugh.

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@Leadfoot,

If you're not happy with how they react to the environment that's not their problem. If that's all you can find to refute evolution it's just a sign of stubbornness.

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Does everyone agree that we evolved from Africa?

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