What good does religion offer the world today?

@Glennn,

Glennn wrote:

. . . When I was a child, I was forced to go to church. The adults there were given free rein when it came to fukcing with my head. In a not so subtle way, they let me know that I was guilty. And as evidence of my guilt, they held up the fact that I have lying in my past. I couldn’t deny it. Then they held up a picture of a guy with a blood-stained face nailed to a cross, and they basically said, “See that? That’s your fault. He’s taking the punishment that you should be taking because even though you’re a no-good sinner, god loves you enough to torture and kill his only begotten son as a way to let you off the hook.” Something told me that if that’s how things worked, I probably shouldn’t question such a god, as that might . . . set him off. I had enough problems without having to deal with the displeasure of an almighty controller who was ready, willing, and able to do such a thing to even his own kid.

I knew sooner or later you would reveal your premises.
Whew!
You talked to me about level foundations.
Now I quite understand why you feel the way you do.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Quote:

The world was perfect; Adam and Eve were perfect until Genesis, ch. 3.

And you know that because . . . you weren't there. Your method of reasoning is unsound. This is proof positive that you've deified the book.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Quote:

Now I quite understand why you feel the way you do.

No. Now you understand why I think the way I do.

What you have quoted from me is the truth. You want to find within it a reason to discredit my analysis of you and your beliefs. I understand that. It doesn't work that way. There is nothing in what I've said that indicates I stand on an unlevel foundation.

Quote:

I knew sooner or later you would reveal your premises.

By all means tell me what I have revealed. What did you find in what I wrote that is not correct?

Someone told you that you were born guilty. You bought into it. You also believe you have spiritual beliefs. But the truth of the matter is that you borrowed the beliefs of others. Your beliefs, like your god, are second hand. And that's acceptable to you because it's the course of least resistance. You need to get something for yourself.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

OK. I know why you think the way you do.
However, your premises are flawed.
Let's take just the account of Jesus' suffering and execution:
Did you actually read it?
Did you take note of the fact that Jesus had an option?

I'll be happy to point it out to you, if you can't find it.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

I wrote:

The world was perfect; Adam and Eve were perfect until Genesis, ch. 3.

Glennn wrote:

And you know that because . . . you weren't there. Your method of reasoning is unsound. This is proof positive that you've deified the book. . .

You were not there either. Yet you are willing to prosecute God for crimes you believe were committed while ignoring his affirmative defenses.

Thank God you're not a district attorney.

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@neologist,

Quote:

OK. I know why you think the way you do.
However, your premises are flawed. Let's take just the account of Jesus' suffering and execution:

Yes, we'll get to that. But I'd hate to see you overlook the flaws in your idea of the god allowing and incorporating barbaric, immoral, inhumane, and unethical treatment of people as a way to point the way to the Messiah. You forgot to attempt to justify that statement.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Quote:

You were not there either.

Exactly! However, I am not the one stating facts concerning how things were, what happened, and the reason for it. You are. And like you say, you weren't there. This is a good place for you to start your path away from book deification.

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@neologist,

Quote:

Thank God you're not a district attorney.

I'm not prosecuting anyone. I'm invalidating ideas based on hearsay--very, very old hearsay.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

I wrote:

OK. I know why you think the way you do.
However, your premises are flawed. Let's take just the account of Jesus' suffering and execution:

Glennn wrote:

Yes, we'll get to that. But I'd hate to see you overlook the flaws in your idea of the god allowing and incorporating barbaric, immoral, and unethical treatment of people as a way to point the way to the Messiah. You forgot to attempt to justify that statement.

Brutal treatment was a fact of the human condition long before the Mosaic Law. You judge the law as barbaric and inhumane. I can understand that. You judge God because He deemed it necessary. Do you also credit God for his promise to undo the wrongs and erase the pains mankind has suffered? That's part of the Bible also.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

I wrote:

Thank God you're not a district attorney.

Glennn wrote:

I'm not prosecuting anyone. I'm invalidating ideas based on hearsay--very, very old hearsay.

OK, then.
I rest my case.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Quote:

You judge God because He deemed it necessary.

Yes, that has been established. But you were asked to explain how allowing and incorporating barbaric, immoral, inhumane, and unethical treatment of people was a way to point the way to the Messiah.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Quote:

I rest my case.

Very well, then. You rest your case on hearsay. I have no further questions for the witness who was not there.

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@Glennn,

Glennn wrote:

. . . You were asked to explain how allowing and incorporating barbaric, immoral, inhumane, and unethical treatment of people was a way to point the way to the Messiah. . .

You just admitted your claims of barbaric, immoral, inhumane, and unethical are based on hearsay. You gave your own explanation.

Case dismissed.

I'm having pizza.

In spite of everything, you're invited.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Quote:

You just admitted your claims of barbaric, immoral, inhumane, and unethical are based on hearsay. You gave your own explanation.

Man's inhumanity to man is not the issue in this discussion. You have said that the god allowed and incorporated barbaric, immoral, inhumane, and unethical treatment of people as a way to point the way to the Messiah. So, go ahead and explain the dynamics of that principle if you would.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Did God not tell us about bacteria because we were not ready to handle it?

Instead, God told us that invisible spirit demons were taking control of our bodies and sending us to hell.

bacteria or demons

Which is the wisest answer?

Was it wise for god to keep us under a dark sinister illusion of demons when there was a logical and less evil understanding of biology?

I am sure for centuries people were put to death because sickness was a sign of their unbelief rather than an infectious bacteria.

Had god simply told humans about bacteria our capacity to understand would have saved much death, anguish and falsehood.

So this only makes one suspicion that any or rather, none of the scriptures come from God. They contain both wisdom and falsehoods that are easily created solely by the errant theosophizing mind of humans.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

God needs permission to speak to us otherwise God is violating our free will.

The Bible claims the people of Moses had spirit "upon" them. Through their prophets they had a connection with God.

They had the spirit upon them because they had "faith".

By faith Noah, by faith Moses...

Apparently faith was all God required for the ability to speak through angels in the clouds to people.

These people were under the law to be judged by the law.

According to the new testament

We still receive the spirit by faith.

But we receive a different kind of spirit experience.

It is called spiritual seed.

Is not "upon" people but "within" people.

The laws are no longer written on scrolls but written on the hearts of those who believe.

God adopted the old testament people but the new testament people are born of a spiritual seed.

This is the answer given in the Bible why it is no longer needed for God to speak to believers in clouds.

God is now within the very psyche due to a free will choice to let God in.

One side note.

When Christians "Speak in Tongues" they claim it is "evidence" of the spirit of God living within themselves speaking a direct message from God to the body of the church.

The Bible calls this phenomenon "word of knowledge" and "word of wisdom".

The Bible says that speaking in tongues is a "more sure witness" than had you seen a burning bush or witnessed any of the miracles of old.

I say it is quite probably a bunch of fake baby-talk, stream of consciousness, mumbo jumbo where then people when interpreting the tongues simply make **** up.

These tongues are no proof of God no matter how profound, first person and wonderful one were make the "divine" message (or any of the other thing theists use to try and prove God's existence.)

If speaking in tongues is a more sure witness than seeing the red sea parted well it sure has left me wanting.

Anyone can be led into speaking in tongues.

But is it really a message from God?

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

I think the point Glenn may be making is Christianity seems to have found in Jesus a clever way to bring blood sacrifice to an end so it would not plague future generations.

It really does not matter if Jesus was real of not if he serves a deterrent to barbaric blood sacrifice practices, fine. Just think if we did not have Jesus the tea party would want be sacrificing animals and people while still claiming to be pro-life.

The Jesus story not only addresses human and animal sacrifice but also bullying by rulers, clerics and the destructive mob mentality.

Whether it be true or not it is a story about morality and hate.

Even God is bound but God's own law, an eye for an eye. A soul for a soul.

... for the propitiation of sin, paid in full.

If no actual man died and it was just a story, are your sins forgiven?

Probably not, but one anomaly is you may become more loving and live a better life due to the understanding of the Jesus story.

Be less of a bully, more forgiving and kind?

And if there really was a Jesus well that makes it all true.

It is more likely that Jesus was a fabrication in order to create a mechanism to seal the sacrificial barbarity of the past.

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@neologist,

Actually Adam and Eve has spirit "upon" them too, (this was why they could lose the spirit and be cast from the garden).

When they left the garden then slowly God made covenants with the people so spirit could once again be "upon" them by faith.

They did not have spirit "within" them like the Bible claims of Christians "christ ins".

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Comment:
Christians have spirit within, old testament believers and Adam and Eve had spirit upon.

Adam and Eve has sprit "upon the condition" that they did not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

The spirit that Christians have the Bible claims is seed and it is eternal something that can ever be separated from the person as what could happen in the old testament and Adam and Eve.

The old testament was adoption (upon) the new testament is sonship (within).

There are two churches the people of the old testament (bride/upon) and the people of the new testament (bridegroom/body/within).

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@TheCobbler,

Human sacrifice was done with long before Christ. In the Iliad Agamemnon's sacrifice of his daughter is shocking because it's just not done. As for animal sacrifice is it worse than today's factory farming?

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@izzythepush,

Then once again the Bible seems to be the catch all for all the plagiarized politicized themes of the 1st century and before.

Jesus epitomizes all of the major religions like you can superimpose his story upon thousands of others within the religious genre.

Then the question Christians use to counter that is:

How can Jesus be king of kings if he is just a made up story of Buddha transplanted in the Middle East.

The Bible says that Jesus was the only real messiah and all the others prior were false claiming to be him.

On many streets in Jerusalem there were people hanging on crosses. They were all innocent. They were victims of a crazy theocratic religious idea.

It seems Jesus came to break that theocratic idea of law into a liberty yet even that was a very Greek way of thinking.

A blending of the Greek philosophers and Hebrew scriptures and you get Jesus. Jesus' real father was probably a Greek. Smile

0 Replies

What good does religion offer the world today?

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