Hello. I am just looking for answers somewhere. Just a short history: I'm a 34 yr old divorced mom with 4 children, girls 13, 10, boys 11, 8. I divorced their father 3 years ago because I felt it was/is the best thing for the children. There was constant fighting almost every waking minute was an argument. Well, in the past 3 years my son the oldest boy at 11 has written me out unless he wants or needs something. I have primary custody and dad has visitation. Dad and I DO NOT talk about anything, he can't be civil to me at all. He is very bitter towards me. The 11yr old on a daily basis tells me what an idiot, freak, moron and loser I am. Tell sme he hates me. He can't stand me, can't stand living here with me and his siblings and wants to go to his dads to live. I had him in counseling because i was hoping to get help for both he and i. Dad found out and tolld my son that the dr was only taking the money and that there was nothing wrong with him, that I was the one that needed counseling because i am the one that tore the family apart and divorced him. Dad is constantly telling kids I am psycho and messed up. The 13 yr old girl recently told her father that the 11yr old needed help becaause it is chaos here with him everyday especially when he doesn't get his way. Dad told 13 yr old- she needs counseling too just like her mom. Dad will bend over backwards for 11 yr old but won't for others. He calls everynight to talk to the 11 yr old and then says ok, just have a minute to talk to the others. The 11 yr old spent 11 days recently with his dad and in that time- dad did not ONCE call to talk to other three. When all children are at his house for visitation there is NO supervision no guidance. On occasion the 8 yr old boy wouldn't do homework and would tell me he didn't do it at dads because he didn't want to and he knew dad wouldn't make him. I love all my children but I don't like the 11yr old. It seems he goes out of his way to make each day a horrible one. When he is not here- it is very quiet and everyone is happy. I feel if i give in and let him live with his dad, I will lose him forever. This child has never told me he loves me and literallly cringes when i try to give him a hug, i can't even shake his hand. Everyday before school, i tell all kids to have a good day and his reply back is ok. He has feeling toward me-- hatred. My oldest 13 yr old girl asks me all the time why i dont' just let him go to dads. He treats his siblings terrible--- hitting constantly and antagonizing to no end. He is an excellent student in school (honor roll) and RESPECTS all people out side of my home. It's like he has a split personality. When he is with me in public he is embarassing the way he talks to me. He talks exactly to me as if he were my ex-husband. Very degrading and like I'm an insignificant piece of dust he just flick away. My son is nice to me when he knows he is going to get something- for example- new clothes- he's great then with 1/2 of getting home and getting his things--- the mean boy comes out again. My ex says when the son is there he has no problems with him at all. My 10 yr old girl cries to sleep at night and tells me she just feels so bad for me because of the names i am called from her brother............I could go on and on but it would be pages..... I'm just looking for something....answers....support........opinions....anything.................I dont' want to give up on him but I am letting him destroy our family..... or so it seems.
What a grim situation. Is there any chance that your 11 year old could spend the summer with his father as a "trial" change of custody?
He's not a stupid boy. He's clever enough to be creating chaos in your heart and in your house. He's also delighted to be Daddy's Mouthpiece.
A summer with his father might well dispel his 11 year old fantasy of The Ideal Parent. The rest of you would certainly have a much needed rest.
In some ways this would break your heart--but you have to remember you are also a mother of three other children and your problem son is making them very, very unhappy.
Sweet reason hasn't worked. Try action. A summer isn't forever.
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Joe Nation
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Fri 11 Jun, 2004 07:09 pm
Holy cow, Berta, what a load you've taken on! I'm glad you've looked into getting professional help, don't let that slide even if, or I guess, especially if, your ex is a bit threatened by it all. The 11-year old is playing the oldest child of divorce game, the hard part is for you to just be yourself with him. You're the mom. Be the mom. That's the loving, caring, hoping, buying the new jeans for him mom, and it's the mom who will not accept disrespect because well, you're the mom.
This all will pass. Shore up the other kids, let em know that the 11 year old is really having a bad time of it and that you'r proud of the them for being able to find ways of making it all work.
None of this is easy. And there is no guarantee that ten years from now he will feel any difference towards you, but all you can do is be you. The rest is life, real life.
Much love,
you'll need it.
Joe
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Eva
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Fri 11 Jun, 2004 09:37 pm
Of course I agree with Joe.
Especially the part where he said, "...and it's the mom who will not accept disrespect because well, you're the mom." If it were me, I would not allow an 11-year-old to call me names or speak disrespectfully to me. If he did so, he would face grounding, loss of privileges, whatever it took. You have a right to insist on respect. And he needs to learn that people will not put up with being treated that way.
You have four allies in this battle of wills. Your other children and your counselor will support you. (What does the counselor say about this issue?)
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Berta
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Sat 12 Jun, 2004 08:18 am
I have tried everything I can think of : grounding, taking away things, every privilege possible as a punishment- nothing has worked. I know it's wrong but I have even told him he can't call his dad on occasion as punishment... nothing has worked. Counseling only went so far with him- after hearing what his dad told him about that- I would literally have to psychicaly pull him there, then it ended up he sat there for the entire time and wouldnt' say a word--- nothing. Counselor just said that dad seemed to be the problem. I know the 11yr old is very bitter because he feels that I tore the family apart and it doesn't help what is coming out of his dads mouth. Anything my son wants at his dads- he gets-- here at home we have chores/rules/guidelines........dad's house is like a party-- fun fun. I keep hearing that he will grow out of it and realize some day what I did was best and that I'm not really a bad person. The sad thing is I see my brother in my son. My brother was very resentful of my mom because of her divorce and hated my mom and rebelled constantly. Today he is on a path to no where because of choices he made as a child/teenager..... I dont' want my son to be so messed up that he ends up that way. I have thought about letting him spend the summer with his dad but scared he won't want to come home- then what? He needs to be here with his brother and sisters, and me. I don't think living with his dad permanently is in his best interest, no structure. I live in a town with great schools and programs for kids, dad lives in a city where the school system is terrible and hardly any programs for kids. Dad solution- let the 11 yrold live there and he can continue to go to school here (use my address). I've told my son that he can't have it both ways- if it were to come down to him being with dad- he has to change everything- school/friends- etc......... he doesnt seem to care. All he thinks about is his dad and himself. If i let him go- I would feel as though I gave up on him and failed. Because of my sons behavior towards his siblings i went down to part time at work so I can be here every minute he is here with them.......he has threatened them on several occasions. I have made every effort I know possible to make this better and get him to realize I would do anything for him and the others-- equally. My other 3 children tell me that "dad only cares about dustin", "it's always about dustin". I even sold my house (2002) that was 11 miles away and bought one closer to dad (2 miles) so it would be more convenient for my kids to maintain relationship with him and be able to see him often- I see this was a mistake. Being closer to one of the problems has made it worse. I have spoken to dad on several occasions about dustin's behavior- his reply is that as long as dustin is respectful to others it doesn't matter how he treats me or his siblings.
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sozobe
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Sat 12 Jun, 2004 10:01 am
Yikes.
As scary as it may be, I agree that a specific, time-limited visit -- the duration of the summer -- could really help things. The reason kids can't have party party party all the time is because of the consequences. Nothing but sugar and salt and fat makes you feel ill. Etc.
Your ex is clearly a deeply selfish person, and that will come out if your son is with him for a long time.
I wonder if you could look into getting another counselor? I, personally, am not impressed with, "It's the dad's fault." There is no room to work with anything in that assessment. 11-year-olds are not small adults, their minds have distinctive biological processes. I am not qualified to counsel you and don't have enough info, but I could see something like your son has been deeply shaken regarding attachment and family bonds, and has an (unconscious?) fear that you will leave HIM, too -- and so as a defense mechanism he does it first, emotionally. That could be exacerbated by the fact that he has had a measure of success; that, as you say, you just don't like him much right now. That feeds into his fears and the whole thing gets worse.
Just in terms of the summer, I think it would help if there were an impassioned speech from you about how much you love him and how he WILL be coming back in the fall, and how much you hope that he will want to stay with you then, but you will talk more then. I think you'd probably want to avoid telling him how much he will hate it and how he will want to come home at the end... just emphasize the loving and missing part, and let him figure out the rest.
In general, though, if any of what I say is true (and seems, to me, like the kind of thing a counselor should be getting at, at any rate deeper than "it's the father's fault"), there are strategies beyond straighforward punishment, ways to allay his fears and break cycles and get through to him.
Meanwhile, this is drastic, but there was just an article here recently dealing with parental alienation laws -- in some states, purposely turning the kid(s) against a parent is grounds for losing custody.
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Noddy24
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Sat 12 Jun, 2004 10:14 am
Reality is the only way to fight illusion. At the moment, your son is deluded as to the Facts of Life and the Way of the World and your husband is enthusiastically aiding and abetting his discontent.
You are exhausted--and the other kids are not happy.
Puritan notions are out of fashion now, but one very useful Puritan notion is "The burnt child dreads the fire." You are shielding your son from actually touching the fire and doing your part to perpetuate illusion.
You have an intelligent child and depending on the state in which you live he is close to the age where he will have a choice about his custodial arrangements. Your son is hyper-loyal to his father, in part because of Daddy's party-hearty approach to parenthood.
Sozobe is absolutely right about sending him off to the Land of Lost Boys with your fully expressed love. Two miles is not an impossible distance and bright eleven year olds know only too well how to work the telephone. Let him have what he wants for the summer so he can see that "wants" and "needs" are very different.
Your other three children also need a rest and a chance to work out their resentment which is contributing to the unhappiness at your house.
Hold your dominion.
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jespah
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Sat 12 Jun, 2004 12:14 pm
Would it be a bad thing (hey, I'm not a parent, I'm just speculating here) to, assuming you send Dustin to his Dad's for the summer, give the other children a wonderful summer?
It doesn't have to be Disneyworld, but I am thinking about fantastic family things together. Dustin might snort and dismiss picnics and the like (hey, lots of teen and preteen boys do), but he might secretly wish he was a part of all that. But I don't want anyone turning the summer into a time to turn against Dustin, so I am concerned about overdoing it and giving the other 3 some ammunition in terms of voting to permanently send Dustin to partyland. "Hey, we had such a great summer WITHOUT you! Why don't you stay at Dad's FOREVER???" Anyway, you don't want that, so I assume it could be a delicate balance - but my suggestion is, why not make home be a good place to be all summer, and not just a place where your other kids catch their breaths.
Dustin just might be begging to return for reasons other than Dad, and the other syblings might apply some peer pressure to Dustin to get in line. Just a thought, hope this helps and best of luck to you.
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msolga
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Sat 12 Jun, 2004 08:03 pm
Yes, I agree, jespah
Why not sit him down & talk about the possibility? If that's what he says he wants (& his dad also wants) then gracefully accept it? If he ends up finding out that dad's not the greatest thing since sliced bread, what's the harm? While he feels he's NOT ALLOWED to live with Dad (& Dad plays on this) your problems will continue & it really isn't fair to the other children, or you! Your son is obviously very unhappy about the marriage breaking up. As things stand at the moment, he's blaming YOU for keeping him away from his father.
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the reincarnation of suzy
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Mon 14 Jun, 2004 10:02 pm
Wow, Berta, that's really tough. I feel for you.
There's a lot of good advice here, I don't think I can add to it. But whatever you do, make sure that Dustin knows how much you love him, no matter where he lives. He will come around eventually, and as long as he knows mom will always be there for him, without saying I told you so, he will be okay in the long run. It's sad that his father is behaving like that, so the kids need a good strong mom all the more. People can overcome many hardships if they have one person who is always there for them. That's all you need to do. Let him live with his dad for awhile, and always make sure he feels that he's welcome back at any time. He can survive inferior schooling for awhile. He will be learning important lessons either way. I can't imagine how hard this all must be, but maybe he needs to learn the hard way, and you and the other kids can have some peace for awhile.
If it turns out that he really likes being with his father and continues to be hateful and bratty, it may just be that's the way he is; a lot like his father, and there's only so much you can do in his life. Some parents have had to face that fact along the way. Just keep loving him and letting him know it. Love him for what he is and what he can or will become as well as for what you hope he will be. In the end, he'll probably turn out the way he's supposed to turn out.
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kstrickland00
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Tue 15 Jun, 2004 10:46 am
Berta,
After reading your story, I felt as though you were speaking about my life. The only difference is its my daughter, age 12, causing chaos.
I understand the pain, frustration, and the feeling of helplessness you feel. You are not alone.
My daughter hit her 16 year old sister last week in the face, and left a bruise. Her father has since picked her up and she is staying with him. Well, let me re-phrase that, she is supposed to be with him, but is actually staying with his girlfriend.
I am very unhappy about this, but also feel that my other two children need the break. When my daughter is here, she is mean to me, my new husband and her siblings.
My ex husband sounds alot like yours. He is beligerent and thinks her behavior is good punishment for me, being he also feels I am the one that tore our family apart.
I am not sure where all this will lead. All I know is for the time being, she is under her fathers care. Whether she will stay with him full time is yet to be decided. My oldest daughter spoke with her father the other night. That conversation did not go well, and he pretty much told her to leave him alone.
I dread the times that my five year old son goes to visit his father, never knowing whether he will be returned.
I really have no advice for you, I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone in situations like this.
I came across your post, when researching my situation.
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Noddy24
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Tue 15 Jun, 2004 11:08 am
kstrickland--
Welcome to A2K. This is a good place for advice--and for comfort.
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Berta
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Tue 15 Jun, 2004 02:46 pm
Thanks so much to all of you for your input into my situation with my son. I have talked with Dustin over the past 3 years on everything from his behavior, treatment of me/siblings/ his relationship with his dad/ my feelings for him etc etc-- I have covered all bases with him with talking where I am coming from. I have repeatedly told him I love him and regardless of anything he ever does, he is my son and I love him. I can only do that. Summer is upon us and I feel I will give him what both he and his father want- I will cross the bridge when the time comes for him to actually come back home. He is 11, although he doesn't know whats best, I will let him do what he wants. I can only hope he comes home. My ex has not realized the terrible impact he has had on the other 3 children and I sincerely think he doesn't care like a father should. Time heals all wounds and I pray his are healed soon and he stops trying to punish me by way of the children.
Kstrickland, not that's it's a great thing, but it sure is comforting to know that someone can relate to what I am feeling and the hopelessness. It can only get better right? If you ever need to 'vent' give me shout.
I will keep all posted.
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Noddy24
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Tue 15 Jun, 2004 03:22 pm
Berta--
Congratulations for taking the more emotionally devastating (to you) of two "wrong" possibilities.
Console yourself with a vision of the Men's Lodge with no one picking up dirty underwear. Also contemplate a summer when the three "easy" kids can have the full attention they deserve.
Hold your dominion.
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apmom1266
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Thu 19 Aug, 2004 08:55 pm
I don't want to seem harsh Berta, but you are the mother, you are the law. Your son NEEDS counseling, better yet your whole family; meaning you and the kids. Do not, if you really want to help your son, give custody to your ex. This man has already been filling your oldest son's head with such vile crap, and if you give him up there will be no hope of helping him.
You should not tolerate ANY rude behavior, whatsoever, from any child in your household. You also need to get away from this idea that you are taking away priviliges when he misbehaves; when he misbehaves he isn't earning priviliges, you're not taking them away, this is something that you must let him know. You may not be able to restrict his visitation with his father, that is a right, but you can make sure he knows that he must earn priviliges.
I suggest, if he has his own room, you take everything out of it but his bed and clothes. Toys are something that can be put up until he's earned the privilige to play with them. Give him a very strict schedule; he get's up at a specific time, he does morning chores, does calisthetics, he eats, takes care of personal hygiene and dresses, goes off to school, comes home(or goes to counseling then home), does his homework, has dinner, does evening chores, does calisthetics, takes care of personal hygiene, and goes to bed. If he's completed any of those activities before it's time for the next one, he simply sits quietly(perhaps you could let him read a book, but nothing more) until it's time for the next thing on his schedule. Keep a chart, as he follows the schedule he gets good marks; as he gets good marks, he earns priviliges(perhaps a toy for a day, a tv show for an hour, an extracurricular activity for a week, etc).
Do continue to tell him you love him. Do not permit him to speak to ANYone in a rude manner or say hurtful things to ANYone. If he is rude, he forfeits the chance to earn priviliges that day; if it takes you 3 days to find out he was rude he forfeits the chance to earn any priviliges for 3 days.
Not only should your whole family go to counseling, you should have weekly family meetings. In these meetings your son could be allowed to express his feelings, but in a polite manner.
But then this is just my suggestion. If you have to work, and he's home alone and able to cause grief it may not be possible to enforce such rules and schedules.
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swestover
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Fri 20 Aug, 2004 09:19 am
I was in a simular situation I have 4 boys 3, 8, 14, 15. My 15yr old was very disrespectful to me and his stepdad. never did what he was told and screamed at me if I tried to make him. with my husband it was your not my dad and i am not listening to you. It was very hard on the whole family. He would beat up on his younger brothers and treat them bad. He did not "beat them" but he would hit them in the arm as they walked by and called them name. It was a horrible situation. Finally we as a family decided that he needed to go live with his father. (who lives 2000 miles away) It was the hardest decision i had to make, but it was best for the whole family. I could not let him continue to disprut our family. He has been at his dads now for 3 months and our family has peace and he is doing ok. His dad does not raise him in the same manner i had been but he is not acting out and he is behaving. Our home is now quiet (as quiet as it can be with 3 boys) and we do not have the tension or stress anymore. I don't know if it is right for you but maybe let him live with his dad and see how he does. It is not fair to you or your other children to see and have to deal with him. I decided that if I did not do something my other son's might follow in his footsteps and I did not want that to happen. There has to be a time when you say enough is enough adn do what is right for you adn the other kids. Hope it works out for you I know how tough it is.
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