7
   

Is there a possible universe where the laws of logic and math are different from what we know?

 
 
aja2015
 
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2015 10:16 am
Ever since the idea of a multiverse became popular, we've all tried to imagine extremely bizarre worlds where, say, Stephen Hawking is just a comedian, or where dinosaurs still exist. But are the laws of logic constant for all the possible universes? Can there be a universe where 5 + 5 is not equivalent to ten?
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2015 10:57 am
@aja2015,
I doubt it Aja. There's a general rule, the less evidence for something the more unlikely it is; no evidence, extremely so
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2015 11:25 am
@aja2015,
The "laws" you mention are functional human constructions based on numerous covert assumptions about context of applicability. The "multiverse" concept allows for potentially infinite varieties of construction. Whether we as humans could ever imagine or interact with them is probably unanswerable.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2015 03:01 pm
@fresco,
Bingo!
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2015 03:55 pm
@aja2015,
Anything you can think of is "possible." And quite a number of things that you can't think of, probably.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2015 05:26 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:
Anything you can think of is "possible
I'm not so sure about that, Andy. I suspect much is impossible simply because somewhere or somehow it entails paradox or contradiction
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2015 06:14 pm
@dalehileman,
Paradox and contradiction are part and parcel of our experience, dale, or we wouldn't be able to entertain the concepts. Is it possible that I am wrong about this? Of course. Anything is possible; therefire nothing is impossible.
Kolyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2015 08:11 pm
@fresco,
I can't see how basic arithmetic could be any different in another universe.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2015 08:43 pm
@Kolyo,
I would think there are other possibilities we humans have not identified. After all, math is a relatively new concept for humans from about 6th c BC.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2015 12:45 am
@Kolyo,
According to some theorists what we call "arithmetic" is a function of human physiology and experience.
All "counting" begins with the nominal level (i.e what is named as "one of a thing"...an essentially human occupation).
As for mathematical operations such as "addition" a simple demonstration of context sensitive status is involved in the "trick question" about boiling eggs. (If it takes 3 minutes to boil one egg, how long does it take to boil two ?)
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2015 05:21 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:
According to some theorists what we call "arithmetic" is a function of human physiology and experience....

Do you have a link for this?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2015 05:53 am
@Brandon9000,
Nobody needs a link for this - except you.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2015 09:18 am
@Brandon9000,
Google "Lakoff and Nunez -Where mathematics comes from".

Or here's a wiki link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_Mathematics_Comes_From
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2015 09:31 am
Quote:
Is there a possible universe where the laws of logic and math are different from what we know?


You mean we humans?

People like Fresco and JL think humans and human thinking is the end-all of existence and REALITY.

Fact is, aja, we humans may know less about existence and REALITY than ants know about what we consider to be the cosmos.

As was said earlier...anything is possible...although I might amend that to: Anything but what is impossible is possible.

There may be impossible things that mighty, massive humans cannot fathom!
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2015 10:17 am
@Frank Apisa,
You really are a fool Frank.

What I and others have actually said, which you refuse to understand, is that words like "reality", "existence" , "self"and even "is", are human constructions whose meanings are subject to negotiation.

So continue to be a bleating fool by all means. But remember that only a fool or a religionist would think that words have meanings or functions outside human of experience.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2015 10:26 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

You really are a fool Frank.


No, I am not. Neither are you, Fresco...so you really should not be using crap like that.

Quote:
What I and others have actually said which you refuse to understand is that words like "reality", "existence" , "self"and even "is", are human constructions whose meanings are subject to negotiation.


So...they are subject to negotiation.

And the fact that humans are able to "negotiate" this kind of stuff means....what?


Quote:
So continue to be a bleating fool by all means.


I am not bleating...nor am I a fool. But continue acting childishly...and many will think you are. You ought to avoid that.

Quote:

But remember that only a fool or a religionist would think that words have meanings or functions outside human of experience.


I am trying to think of an appropriate word for someone who puts too much emphasis on what humans say...when it comes to questions such as this thread asks.

All that I come up with are words I prefer not to use.
neologist
 
  3  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2015 02:14 pm
@aja2015,
OP wrote:
Is there a possible universe where the laws of logic and math are different from what we know?
Yes. Here at a2k.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2015 02:15 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank, I have some sympathy when Fresco calls you a fool. In itself that's not necessarily a bad thing, the fool starts the Tarot and has its own esoteric qualities.

Fresco is propounding well tricky philosphical ideas. If you really want to tackle them you need to spend a bit of time reading Heidegger and Wittgenstein amongst others so at least then you might have some idea of what you're arguing about.

Or you could do what I do, and not give a monkeys about it all.

What you do is the worst of all possible options, you refuse to read up on a concept so you can get your head around it, but still act like you know everything when you talk to those who have read up on the bloody concepts.

You wouldn't do it with engineering, so why do it with philosophy and quantum physics?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2015 02:23 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Frank, I have some sympathy when Fresco calls you a fool. In itself that's not necessarily a bad thing, the fool starts the Tarot and has its own esoteric qualities.

Fresco is propounding well tricky philosphical ideas. If you really want to tackle them you need to spend a bit of time reading Heidegger and Wittgenstein amongst others so at least then you might have some idea of what you're arguing about.

Or you could do what I do, and not give a monkeys about it all.

What you do is the worst of all possible options, you refuse to read up on a concept so you can get your head around it, but still act like you know everything when you talk to those who have read up on the bloody concepts.

You wouldn't do it with engineering, so why do it with philosophy and quantum physics?


I?????

Frank Apisa...acting like he KNOWS EVERYTHING?

What the hell are you babbling about, Izzy?

I acknowledge that I do not know the answers to these kinds of questions MORE than anyone else in this forum.

For you to make that charge is bizarre.

I do not care what the "authorities" to whom Fresco regularly appeals have to say. They are not here to discuss their ideas.

And if they are suggesting, as Fresco regularly suggests, that REALITY is dependent upon humans and human thought...I would have the same problems with them as I do with him.

In the meantime...continue to have sympathy with Fresco for calling me a fool. I will try to bear up under the burden.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2015 02:26 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Well you can't say I didn't try.
 

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