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Progress in consciousness?

 
 
BoGoWo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2004 08:11 am
Terry wrote:
......BoGoWo and Doug, our consciousnesses do indeed create an illusion of "now," but time itself is not illusory but a necessary part of the space-time matrix of our universe on a micro level as well as a macro one. If quantum particles did not vibrate and waves did not oscillate, nothing would happen, nothing would change, and this universe would still be nothing instead of everything.


as usual Terry; i agree with virtually everything you say (boooooring!); but i don't see 'motion' as a demonstration of time.
I suppose i am really trying to redefine 'time', not eliminate it.
Quantum physics is such a delicious blend of chance, and position, but some discrete changes do occur simultaneously, do they not?
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Ibn kumuna
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2004 10:42 am
I agree with BoGoWo.

--Ibn
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2004 12:15 pm
Terry, I agree with your principle, in principle Laughing . We all suffer from the danger that our religious views seem superior to others' religious views, because we are comparing them by means of the standards and assumptions of our religious system. The applies to ethnocentric comparisons between cultures as well. To make comparisons objectively, we must be able to stand outside of both. I have been a fundamentalist Christian (in my youth), and I have a brother who is a fundamentalist Baptist minister. My exposure to Hindu mysticism is less extensive; my experience is with Buddhist teachers and meditation. Nevertheless, I would not say that this double exposure affords me objectivity. So how do I claim to know which religious perspective is better? I confess, I DO NOT know that answer objectively. But I'll ask you to decide--since I have no problem with my judgement--by reading the Vedanta texts of the Upanishads, and works by Pat Robertson or Billy Graham.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2004 12:27 pm
alikimr

You may be missing the point. I do not have to be "aware" of the "structures" derived in non anthropocentric systems any more than I am "aware" of the multidimensionality advocated by modern physics.
The "reality" of either is a function (in part) of their explanatory adequacy in "predicting" mundane events. And there is still the holistic aspect of the summation of all such categorizations, but such holism may have no "explanatory impact" per se.

I don't find any currency in arguing about differences between "mystical" and "metaphysical" in discussions where "reality" is up for grabs. Even "physicists" now acknowledge that the observer may "elicit the observed" and that paradoxes such as non-locality seriously question "logical explanation".
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2004 12:56 pm
Gelisgesti, I don't want to let your statement--"To be conscious is to realize the existence of 'now'" pass without comment. I sense that is true--this does not mean that I have the kind of evidence required to persuade persons with a different sense--that the present is "that place" where the not-yet-existing future becomes the no-longer-existing past. NOW is that empty place where non-existents meet. Yet it is where everything is, in its state of "emptiness," as the Buddhist put it.
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Letty
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2004 02:55 pm
Still reading, and did discover that tcs (I think) likes Ayn Rand.

Anyone like Henry James? I would appreciate your comments here:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26729

And hold this thought, yawl. Jesus "likes" you. Razz
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2004 08:10 pm
JLNobody wrote:
Gelisgesti, I don't want to let your statement--"To be conscious is to realize the existence of 'now'" pass without comment. I sense that is true--this does not mean that I have the kind of evidence required to persuade persons with a different sense--that the present is "that place" where the not-yet-existing future becomes the no-longer-existing past. NOW is that empty place where non-existents meet. Yet it is where everything is, in its state of "emptiness," as the Buddhist put it.


Hi JL, we try to understand the wrong things. Once we gain knowledge we develop a capacity to learn.
Time is an abstract used in the objectification of consciousness. A measurement not made til it passes.

There are infinities that lie between what will, what is, and what was. You are correct in your use of 'emptiness' but would be more correct in using 'capacity' in it's stead. An unborn moment has a 'capacity' for whatever fills it .... as does consciousness.

All things do exist, all things do so simultaneously as there is no quantification of time in nature.

Back to you JL. Wink
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2004 08:30 pm
Correct, Gelisgesti. (Only?) man quantifies. This applies both to "spans of time" and "lengths, depths, and widths of space". The failure to recognize thar time and space exist mainly as our constructions, leaves us unduly amazed when we think of the "infinite" size of the Cosmos and "infinte" time. We cannot imagine coming to the end of space or the end of time. At least I can't. This is ironic because they are our constructions. We have created ideas (time and space) that are, in their logical extremes, too much for us.
Yes, capacity is fine. The Buddhists do not think of emptiness (sunyatta or void) as negative. It is positive, as POTENTIAL, which I think is not unlike your "capacity".
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BoGoWo
 
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Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2004 08:46 pm
there is a blind eddy in the stream of awareness, when too much attention is paid to reaching a higher, different, or even 'altered' state from which to experience totality.

in some ways the everyday consciousness with which we automatically face our mundane existences, serves perfectly well to plumb the depths of being. All that is required, to open the absorptive window of awareness to 'reality', is a deep all encompassing passion for it all; exactly opposite to what is offered to us, by the universe in which we 'find' ourselves.
it is this that melds it all together, and it is this that sets us apart!
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Tiaha
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 08:52 am
there is time in nature. You only need to look at a growing flower, or a tree, to see that.

There are four seasons. [at least where I live. I know some parts of the world only have two, or one, but whatever.] That... is a sense of... ritual. of time. isn't it? The first measurements made of time were based on the seasons and the positions of the moon and sun and stars.
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jnhofzinser
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 10:30 am
Terry wrote:
We have made progress in understanding how consciousness is produced by the brain
Hi Terry, (I'm not picking on you, honest Very Happy)

I'm afraid that the claim above is not more (perhaps much less) correct than the pre-Copernican astronomer's claims that his tweaks to Ptolemy represent "progress in understanding how the celestial bodies behave".

Frankly, modern science hasn't the first clue as to "how consciousness is produced by the brain". Plenty of speculation. No evidence. No experimental results. No working models. In fact, one could legitimately argue (see, for example, McGinn's The Problem of Consciousness) that we will never make "progress in understanding how consciousness is produced by the brain" -- i.e., that this field is beyond the boundaries of science.

PS: nice avatar tTF Wink
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 11:53 am
jnhofzinser

Good point !

Some of my previous references to Terry don't even confine "consciousness" to "the brain"!
This is one of these topics where the side issues like "what do we mean by understanding ?" may be more fruitful than the central theme.
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 02:01 pm
And, of course, there are the problems presented by David Chalmers of the Univ. of Arizona. The bridge between material brain and immaterial experience/consciousness is an old unresolved philosophical/epistemological problem. If consciousness were REDUCED to organic brain functions objectivism and materialism would prevail over idealism. If it were shown how even notions of brain, matter, etc. were no more than ideas or contents of consciousness, then idealism would prevail. As I see it, the debate persists because both camps are clearly not ALL WRONG. Each seems to have half of the reality.I sense, therefore--perhaps in desperation--that the way to the truth runs between them. The Middle Way is probably the most realistic. But how do we proceed that way? Anybody?
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jnhofzinser
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 02:10 pm
JLNobody wrote:
If consciousness [could be(?)] REDUCED to organic brain functions objectivism and materialism would prevail over idealism. If it were shown how even notions of brain, matter, etc. were no more than ideas or contents of consciousness, then idealism would prevail.
It might be that:
a) "even notions of brain...are no more than...contents of consciousness"
b) it is impossible to "show" a)
(which would result in a persistent debate even though one side is, in fact, "ALL WRONG")

David Chalmers' great site on Consciousness
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 02:38 pm
Good point. It would seem that one cannot possibly "show" that our experience of material "things and processes" are no more than experiences, but from the perspective of an idealist it seems obviously so. Moreover, the claim that conscious experience is clearly a function or a corollary of material brain states, may receive support when the brain is manipulated and experience subsequently changes. This would seem to be accepatable as "proof" for materialism. Yet an idealist could claim that the issue has been royally begged. The observation of the correlation between brain manipulations and reports of change in consciousness is itself an experience. How does one stand outside of experience to see how non-experential "things" affect experience? The problem is fundamentally philosophical or metaphysical, not scientific.
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jnhofzinser
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 05:45 pm
JLNobody wrote:
The problem is fundamentally philosophical or metaphysical, not scientific.
I agree entirely. At the same time, I would welcome any attempts to explore the dialetic introduced earlier.
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stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 08:08 pm
Quote:
Frankly, modern science hasn't the first clue as to "how consciousness is produced by the brain". Plenty of speculation. No evidence. No experimental results. No working models. In fact, one could legitimately argue (see, for example, McGinn's The Problem of Consciousness) that we will never make "progress in understanding how consciousness is produced by the brain" -- i.e., that this field is beyond the boundaries of science.


It's true that modern science has very little knowledge about this. However, you could not argue that it will never be possible...that is a ridiculous claim. If it can be created, than there is a way for it to be created, than this way can be known. it's as simple as that....even though we don't know this way yet. you can't say that it's impossible to understand something.

To say that something is not explainable by science is not logical. Science does not exclude the seemingly un-scientific. Anything that can be explained becomes part of science. If it were proven that God existed, then God would become a scientific fact. The only distinction between scientific and un-scientific is "proven beyond reasonable doubt" and "just guessing".

Furthermore, although we are very far from understanding consciousness, we HAVE made notable advances of knowledge. For instance:

1 - consciousness can be created, have lapses, or be removed
2 - consciousness is found in many advanced organisms other than just humans, but not in simple organisms
3 - consciousness requires a physical energy source
4- consciousness requires a physical organ such as a brain to be functioning to exist
5 - consciousness seems to have more 2 states (on/off), it seems to vary in cognitive ability, emotion, and logical method

However rudimentary you may think these facts (which I am sure are not encompasing of ALL we know about consciousness), they have been learned, and there is nothing to suggest that we will not continue to learn.
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alikimr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 09:50 pm
JLN: You say, "non-experiantial 'things' affect
experience"........Yes, truly, this "problem" is NOT
scientific! But, please, why are all contradictory
statements that you introduce in your arguments
are classified by you as being "metaphysical", and
thus conveniently excluding them from any critical
scientific analysis?

stuh505: Your excellent post should be read as
a kind of anti-thesis to this JLN & jnhoffzinser 's
non-scientific position on consciousness.....in the
dialectic tradition.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 12:08 am
Alikimr, by "metaphysical" I mean no more than the level of thought that deals with fundamental presuppositions, not with empirical questions and answers. Stuh505's statements are well taken, all solid stuff, but they miss the point. He's talking about the "easy problem", as the scholar of consciousness, David Chalmers calls it. The mechanics of how states called consciousness are produced by organic processes. The "hard problem," according to Chalmers, is the philosophical (metaphysical) problem of understanding the amazing issue of why consciousness itself has arisen in the universe, why material evolution has transcended itself to be self-conscious. That includes the miracle of us carbon-based organisms talking as we are right now. How do we understand that in an objective manner? At present our efforts seem to be no more than describing what is happening materiallly(the scientific easy problem), not why it has occured (the philosophical hard problem). Remember, science does not deal with "why questions", only "how questions." Anotheraspect of Chalmers' work, as I understand it, is the actual nature of consciousness, not just its determinants. Maybe someday particle physics may indicate answers, since it seems to be approaching the very basis of all things and bridging the gap between how and why issues. I hope so. Mysticism is not concerned, as far as I can tell, with the matter.
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stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 05:46 am
Quote:
He's talking about the "easy problem", as the scholar of consciousness, David Chalmers calls it. The mechanics of how states called consciousness are produced by organic processes. The "hard problem," according to Chalmers, is the philosophical (metaphysical) problem of understanding the amazing issue of why consciousness itself has arisen in the universe, why material evolution has transcended itself to be self-conscious.


You have it backwards. The why problem is easy; it was inevitable. We have consciousness because the right conditions existed and enough time has passed for the right random changes and natural selection process to cause it to happen...I'm sure it was highly selected for given it's great usefulness. That's like asking "why do we exist". The only way to disagree with this is to believe in God, in which case, you are on another topic entirely.

The how problem is unanswered and that is the hard part.
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