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Pedantic...Stiff Necked

 
 
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 10:12 am
The poster girl for the new America....

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=AR5G1BHAOCSCUCRBAE0CFFA?type=politicsNews&storyID=5383174
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,673 • Replies: 47
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 10:14 am
Seems to be an empty link to me...

Cycloptichorn
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Jer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 10:16 am
I got nothing from that link BPB - can you fetch it again?
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 10:21 am
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=AR5G1BHAOCSCUCRBAE0CFFA?type=politicsNews&storyID=5383174
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 11:11 am
I would not call that being stiff-necked. How about consistant in a belief? I would call it having character to take a stand for something you believe even when others (in or out of your own political party) believe otherwise.

But no, just like so many other posts here (from both reps and dems) you have to resort to name calling. Unless of course you don't think saying someone is stiff-necked is name calling? Oh well.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 11:17 am
I think you made a great point there CR.

Quote:
I would not call that being stiff-necked. How about consistant in a belief?


Right on the money there. She BELIEVES stem cell research is bad. But does she know WHY it is bad? Does she know any details at all, the modern science, the potential behind it?

Nope. And I would hazard a guess that many of the people who feel the same way about the issue haven't a clue about the science behind it.

You don't need scientific facts, or evidence, when you have BELIEFS. Sums up the whole administration right there.

Cycloptichorn
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 11:32 am
And of course you know for certain that she has no understanding of the science behind it, right?

I have no understanding of the science behind photosynthesis, but I still believe it happens. (Not the best example, but all I could come up with on short notice LOL)
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 11:51 am
It's been my experience that those who understand the science behind the two hot biotech issues right now - stem cell research and cloning - tend to be in support of it.

The other side of the issue is a knee-jerk reaction linked to abortion issues. I suppose it is wrong to categorize LB this way but I would bet a goodish amount of money that neither she nor her illustrious husband understand the first damn thing about it.

Cycloptichorn
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 12:17 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
It's been my experience that those who understand the science behind the two hot biotech issues right now - stem cell research and cloning - tend to be in support of it.

The other side of the issue is a knee-jerk reaction linked to abortion issues. I suppose it is wrong to categorize LB this way but I would bet a goodish amount of money that neither she nor her illustrious husband understand the first damn thing about it.

Cycloptichorn


I'll admit they may not understand the science behind it. I am not too ashamed to admit that I don't fully understand the science behind it. But is her objection based on a reasoned thought process? Even if her reasoning has to do with her strong anti-abortion beliefs, it is still a valid reason (again, based on my knowledge of the issues which is not as complete as it should be since I am commenting on it).
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 12:38 pm
The only reason I do feel comfortable discussing this issue in depth is that I've spent a considerable amount of time studying it over the last 5 years.

The potential for stem cells is tremendous. There are some very well-respected scientists talking about things like curing cancer, alzheimers, paralysis, regrowing lost limbs(!) etc.

The current stance held by the admin. is to allow research to be done on certain strains of stem cells, while disallowing others. This makes absolutely no sense at all whatsoever and has left many prominent scientists puzzled. The rest of the world is beginning to advance far past us in this region of biotechnological study, which is a poor move for the U.S. to make.

After studying it for several years, I have come to the conclusion that there is no good argument against stem cell research that does not stem from religious grounds. And that is a bad way to make policy.

Cycloptichorn
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NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 12:42 pm
Laura Bush, like her husband, is opposed to anything that will benefit mankind or even the United States. Her husband had slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent people and she has supported him. This tells me something about her character.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 12:43 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

After studying it for several years, I have come to the conclusion that there is no good argument against stem cell research that does not stem from religious grounds. And that is a bad way to make policy.
Cycloptichorn


of any kind...or pick leaders...assign judges...run the school system.....the media.....

hey, I didn't vote for him.
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 12:47 pm
And I can certainly see your point Cy. I would not even begin to argue against your views because I don't know enough about it. But I do think that just because LB's views are based on a religious belief does not discount her sincerity or necessarily the validity of her view. It sure does not make her stiff-necked for living out her religious belief. At least IMHO.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 12:49 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

After studying it for several years, I have come to the conclusion that there is no good argument against stem cell research that does not stem from religious grounds. *snip*


of any kind...or pick leaders...assign judges...run the school system.....the media.....*snip*



Mumbling and grumbling in agreement...
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 12:51 pm
NickFun wrote:
Laura Bush, like her husband, is opposed to anything that will benefit mankind or even the United States. Her husband had slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent people and she has supported him. This tells me something about her character.


And this post tells me something about your intellectual capacity. You cannot discuss something intelligently so you throw out some type of hate speech that you think makes you look like you know what you are talking about.

So, if you don't have anything to add to the current conversation or cannot do it without making idiotic statements about Bush slaughtering innocent people, then I would suggest you just keep quiet.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 01:07 pm
If anyone cares--those who are interested in the truth probably do; those who are interested in smearing the president and first lady probably don't--here is the president's conviction and position on stem cell research and it is shared by the first lady.

Remarks by the President on Stem Cell Research
The Bush Ranch
Crawford, Texas

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/08/20010809-2.html

View the President's Remarks
Listen to the President's Remarks

8:01 P.M. CDT

THE PRESIDENT: Good evening. I appreciate you giving me a few minutes of your time tonight so I can discuss with you a complex and difficult issue, an issue that is one of the most profound of our time.

The issue of research involving stem cells derived from human embryos is increasingly the subject of a national debate and dinner table discussions. The issue is confronted every day in laboratories as scientists ponder the ethical ramifications of their work. It is agonized over by parents and many couples as they try to have children, or to save children already born.

The issue is debated within the church, with people of different faiths, even many of the same faith coming to different conclusions. Many people are finding that the more they know about stem cell research, the less certain they are about the right ethical and moral conclusions.

My administration must decide whether to allow federal funds, your tax dollars, to be used for scientific research on stem cells derived from human embryos. A large number of these embryos already exist. They are the product of a process called in vitro fertilization, which helps so many couples conceive children. When doctors match sperm and egg to create life outside the womb, they usually produce more embryos than are planted in the mother. Once a couple successfully has children, or if they are unsuccessful, the additional embryos remain frozen in laboratories.

Some will not survive during long storage; others are destroyed. A number have been donated to science and used to create privately funded stem cell lines. And a few have been implanted in an adoptive mother and born, and are today healthy children.

Based on preliminary work that has been privately funded, scientists believe further research using stem cells offers great promise that could help improve the lives of those who suffer from many terrible diseases -- from juvenile diabetes to Alzheimer's, from Parkinson's to spinal cord injuries. And while scientists admit they are not yet certain, they believe stem cells derived from embryos have unique potential.

You should also know that stem cells can be derived from sources other than embryos -- from adult cells, from umbilical cords that are discarded after babies are born, from human placenta. And many scientists feel research on these type of stem cells is also promising. Many patients suffering from a range of diseases are already being helped with treatments developed from adult stem cells.

However, most scientists, at least today, believe that research on embryonic stem cells offer the most promise because these cells have the potential to develop in all of the tissues in the body.

Scientists further believe that rapid progress in this research will come only with federal funds. Federal dollars help attract the best and brightest scientists. They ensure new discoveries are widely shared at the largest number of research facilities and that the research is directed toward the greatest public good.

The United States has a long and proud record of leading the world toward advances in science and medicine that improve human life. And the United States has a long and proud record of upholding the highest standards of ethics as we expand the limits of science and knowledge. Research on embryonic stem cells raises profound ethical questions, because extracting the stem cell destroys the embryo, and thus destroys its potential for life. Like a snowflake, each of these embryos is unique, with the unique genetic potential of an individual human being.

As I thought through this issue, I kept returning to two fundamental questions: First, are these frozen embryos human life, and therefore, something precious to be protected? And second, if they're going to be destroyed anyway, shouldn't they be used for a greater good, for research that has the potential to save and improve other lives?

I've asked those questions and others of scientists, scholars, bioethicists, religious leaders, doctors, researchers, members of Congress, my Cabinet, and my friends. I have read heartfelt letters from many Americans. I have given this issue a great deal of thought, prayer and considerable reflection. And I have found widespread disagreement.

On the first issue, are these embryos human life -- well, one researcher told me he believes this five-day-old cluster of cells is not an embryo, not yet an individual, but a pre-embryo. He argued that it has the potential for life, but it is not a life because it cannot develop on its own.

An ethicist dismissed that as a callous attempt at rationalization. Make no mistake, he told me, that cluster of cells is the same way you and I, and all the rest of us, started our lives. One goes with a heavy heart if we use these, he said, because we are dealing with the seeds of the next generation.

And to the other crucial question, if these are going to be destroyed anyway, why not use them for good purpose -- I also found different answers. Many argue these embryos are byproducts of a process that helps create life, and we should allow couples to donate them to science so they can be used for good purpose instead of wasting their potential. Others will argue there's no such thing as excess life, and the fact that a living being is going to die does not justify experimenting on it or exploiting it as a natural resource.

At its core, this issue forces us to confront fundamental questions about the beginnings of life and the ends of science. It lies at a difficult moral intersection, juxtaposing the need to protect life in all its phases with the prospect of saving and improving life in all its stages.

As the discoveries of modern science create tremendous hope, they also lay vast ethical mine fields. As the genius of science extends the horizons of what we can do, we increasingly confront complex questions about what we should do. We have arrived at that brave new world that seemed so distant in 1932, when Aldous Huxley wrote about human beings created in test tubes in what he called a "hatchery."

In recent weeks, we learned that scientists have created human embryos in test tubes solely to experiment on them. This is deeply troubling, and a warning sign that should prompt all of us to think through these issues very carefully.

Embryonic stem cell research is at the leading edge of a series of moral hazards. The initial stem cell researcher was at first reluctant to begin his research, fearing it might be used for human cloning. Scientists have already cloned a sheep. Researchers are telling us the next step could be to clone human beings to create individual designer stem cells, essentially to grow another you, to be available in case you need another heart or lung or liver.

I strongly oppose human cloning, as do most Americans. We recoil at the idea of growing human beings for spare body parts, or creating life for our convenience. And while we must devote enormous energy to conquering disease, it is equally important that we pay attention to the moral concerns raised by the new frontier of human embryo stem cell research. Even the most noble ends do not justify any means.

My position on these issues is shaped by deeply held beliefs. I'm a strong supporter of science and technology, and believe they have the potential for incredible good -- to improve lives, to save life, to conquer disease. Research offers hope that millions of our loved ones may be cured of a disease and rid of their suffering. I have friends whose children suffer from juvenile diabetes. Nancy Reagan has written me about President Reagan's struggle with Alzheimer's. My own family has confronted the tragedy of childhood leukemia. And, like all Americans, I have great hope for cures.

I also believe human life is a sacred gift from our Creator. I worry about a culture that devalues life, and believe as your President I have an important obligation to foster and encourage respect for life in America and throughout the world. And while we're all hopeful about the potential of this research, no one can be certain that the science will live up to the hope it has generated.

Eight years ago, scientists believed fetal tissue research offered great hope for cures and treatments -- yet, the progress to date has not lived up to its initial expectations. Embryonic stem cell research offers both great promise and great peril. So I have decided we must proceed with great care.

As a result of private research, more than 60 genetically diverse stem cell lines already exist. They were created from embryos that have already been destroyed, and they have the ability to regenerate themselves indefinitely, creating ongoing opportunities for research. I have concluded that we should allow federal funds to be used for research on these existing stem cell lines, where the life and death decision has already been made.

Leading scientists tell me research on these 60 lines has great promise that could lead to breakthrough therapies and cures. This allows us to explore the promise and potential of stem cell research without crossing a fundamental moral line, by providing taxpayer funding that would sanction or encourage further destruction of human embryos that have at least the potential for life.

I also believe that great scientific progress can be made through aggressive federal funding of research on umbilical cord placenta, adult and animal stem cells which do not involve the same moral dilemma. This year, your government will spend $250 million on this important research.

I will also name a President's council to monitor stem cell research, to recommend appropriate guidelines and regulations, and to consider all of the medical and ethical ramifications of biomedical innovation. This council will consist of leading scientists, doctors, ethicists, lawyers, theologians and others, and will be chaired by Dr. Leon Kass, a leading biomedical ethicist from the University of Chicago.

This council will keep us apprised of new developments and give our nation a forum to continue to discuss and evaluate these important issues. As we go forward, I hope we will always be guided by both intellect and heart, by both our capabilities and our conscience.

I have made this decision with great care, and I pray it is the right one.

Thank you for listening. Good night, and God bless America.

END 8:12 P.M. CDT
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 01:20 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
If anyone cares--those who are interested in the truth probably do; those who are interested in smearing the president and first lady probably don't--here is the president's conviction and position on stem cell research and it is shared by the first lady. quote]

Nice inflammatory beginning there foxy...careful you don't fall off that high horse....it's a looonnngggg way down......
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 01:25 pm
If you do fall, watch out for the bear excrement. It's all over...
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 01:26 pm
What a well-written speech. Cheers to whoever wrote it, because it sure wasn't bush, lol.

As for the content; I do realize there are two sides to the issue, but we continually come up against the wall of Religion poking its ugly head into politics.

If abortion is legal in this country (which it is) becuase the majority of people wish it to be legal (which they apparenlty do) then the issue of when a set of cells becomes a child is a rather moot point on this debate. We already sanction the killing of 'possible' people in their eyes. This is just the new way to attack that issue, to me.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
onyxelle
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 01:31 pm
CoastalRat wrote:
... tells me something about your intellectual capacity... idiotic statements


Lets try to be civil & not insult those whose views may not be in line with your own or not as eloquently put as your own. Thank you.
0 Replies
 
 

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