Are there any peaceful muslim nations?

@oralloy,

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The existence of rights within legal systems is not something that I imagined.

Come now, you are saying that in Australian law, I am right and you are wrong. But in American law, it's reversed.

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It is a fact that all legal systems based on English Common Law include the right of ordinary people to have guns for self defense.

I wouldn't know about that, it's history I'm not familiar with, but if correct, then it would be historical fact...historical fact in the existence of a concept that was believed in enough, and then became law.

The concept that guns make self defense easier / more equal (whatever), became law. See, at it's heart, such a law (any law) is a concept that enough people believe in for it to become law (in a democracy anyway)

So at it's heart we have a difference of opinion / belief.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Come now, you are saying that in Australian law, I am right and you are wrong. But in American law, it's reversed.

I am saying that in Australian law, the right existed and was abolished. In American law the right continues to exist.

vikorr wrote:

I wouldn't know about that, it's history, and probably historical fact...that doesn't make the grounds on which that 'right' was founded any less a concept, or belief.

The concept of freedom and civil rights is a pretty good one as far as concepts go.

vikorr wrote:

The concept that guns make self defense easier / more equal (whatever), became law.

The concept is that free people must be allowed to have guns that are suitable for self defense.

vikorr wrote:

See, at it's heart, such a law (any law) is a concept that enough people believe in for it to become law (in a democracy anyway)
So at it's heart we have a difference of opinion / belief.

I find it tragic that a majority of Australians no longer believe in freedom.

Especially since it was not necessary to abolish freedom in order to achieve their gun safety goals.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Right, the concept...which is an opinion / belief, rather than a fact.

You believe that X (in this case a different version of gun ownership) is necessary to = Freedom and/or Civil Rights.

I don't. That's fine. That's a difference of opinion.

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@vikorr,

It's not a difference of opinion.

These are ancient human rights we're talking about here. They exist.

It's also a fact that Australia's gun safety goals did not require the abolishment of this right.

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@oralloy,

No human rights are fact. They exist because enough people believe in the concept (the concept is otherwise know as 'the right')

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It's also a fact that Australia's gun safety goals did not require the abolishment of this right.

That again, is your opinion. We are going around in circles here.

Oralloy, if you cannot grasp the difference between opinion and fact (and it appears you don't), then this discussion is doomed to end in frustration. It is not a discussion you can 'win'. That you believe opinion to be fact does not, and cannot change, that it is opinion.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

No human rights are fact. They exist because enough people believe in them.

It is a fact that these rights were part of the founding of our culture.

These rights may exist only because people believe in them. But the people in question were the entirety of our founding ancestors.

vikorr wrote:

That again, is your opinion.

No. It is a fact that it is possible to prevent dangerous people from having guns without also impacting non-dangerous people.

It is very straightforward. All you have to do is focus on the dangerous people, and not bother the people who are not dangerous.

vikorr wrote:

Oralloy, if you cannot grasp the difference between opinion and fact (and it appears you don't), then this discussion is doomed to end in frustration. It is not a discussion you can 'win'. That you believe opinion to be fact does not, and cannot change, that it is opinion.

I understand the difference.

This is an example of a fact: The sky is blue.

This is an example of a fact: Grass is green.

This is an example of an opinion: I think it is great that the sky is blue and grass is green.

This is an example of an opinion: I think it is terrible that the sky is blue and grass is green.

This is a fact: We have an ancient human right that protects our ability to have guns for self defense.

This is a fact: Australia abolished this ancient right.

This is a fact: Australia could have achieved all of their goals without abolishing this ancient right.

This is an opinion: I think that what Australia did is a terrible tragedy.

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@oralloy,

Okay, you have some grasp, but not enough for this conversation.

Though again, this conversation belongs in a different thread.

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@izzythepush,

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I don't debate with bigots.

That would amount to debating yourself. You probably would not win that debate either. I feel for the children you refuse to protect.

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@izzythepush,

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All religions can be twisted into hate.

There is no twisting, Islams hate for all things not Islamic couldn't be more clear. You are either a coward or very stupid, I'll go with both.

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@coldjoint,

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You are either a coward or very stupid, I'll go with both.

There is a third option - that he supports it, but won't say so.

He never acknowledges any terrorist event committed in the name of Islam. It appears, as far as he is concerned, that it is all quite okay for the perpertrators to commit them - certainly I've asked him multiple times, and he won't criticise those events one iota. Virtually everything he's said in this thread is aimed at shutting down anyone talking about such events, or the common contributing ideology (Islam, being what each is committed in the name of).

Does that behaviour not look like coming from a supporter of (islamist) terrorism?

1 Reply

@vikorr,

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Does that behaviour not look like coming from a supporter of (islamist) terrorism?

I think he is a terrified apologist. As far as being a supporter? He is an enabler sending out a message to Islam that there a no men left in the UK, so do what you will and please eat me last.

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@coldjoint,

There's also the possibility that he is a fundamentalist Muslim.

It would certainly explain why he constantly complains that I hate muslims, despite there being no foundation for such as claim - as everything I say is aimed at the events and their contributing ideology. And it would certainly explain the vitriol and hate he spews.

That sort of emotion generated by fundamental beliefs would explain why he constantly engages in provable bigotry while complaining of others bigotry without his ever being able to provide evidence of such.

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@vikorr,

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There's also the possibility that he is a fundamentalist Muslim.

Don't leave out the possibility he is fundamentally a liar. When you deny reality, you are lying.

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@coldjoint,

Ummm...We're very good at that as a species. We have inbuilt filtration devices that tend to grasp on to things that reinforce our beliefs, while ignoring things that don't. We basically deny reality everytime we discard information that disagrees with our beliefs.

I would have said instead, we instinctively deceive ourselves.

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@vikorr,

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I would have said instead, we instinctively deceive ourselves.

That does not give us the right to deceive others especially when children are being victimized and citizens terrorized. I think that is enough talk about Izzy.

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@vikorr,

There are peaceful Muslim countries.

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Skyline of Jakarta, capital of Indonesia, the largest Muslim-majority country in the world.
More than 24.1% of the world's population is Muslim.[98][99] Current estimates conclude that the number of Muslims in the world is around 1.8 billion.[98] Muslims are the majority in 49 countries,[100] they speak hundreds of languages and come from diverse ethnic backgrounds.

I have visited Penang and Kuala Lumpur, but it was many decades ago.
I have visited many Muslim countries, and didn't feel any different from visiting christian, judaism or buddhist countries.

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@cicerone imposter,

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I have visited many Muslim countries,

Irrelevant to what Islam says. And you not recognizing a difference speaks volumes.

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@cicerone imposter,

Muslim countries I have visited. Morocco (stationed there for one year in the USAF), Turkey, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Jordan, and Tunisia.

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@cicerone imposter,

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There are peaceful Muslim countries.

I'm curious as to why you aim this post at me?

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Basically, the whole idea of a peaceful muslim nation is ridiculous and in fact "peaceful muslim nation" is an oxymoron like safe sex or jumbo shrimp. Islam is about war, not peace.

1 Reply

Are there any peaceful muslim nations?

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