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Are there any peaceful muslim nations?

 
 
Candlelight8
 
  0  
Wed 12 Oct, 2016 06:09 pm
@CerealKiller,
I understand what you mean CerealKiller. The real question is are there any peaceful liberals? Man there a vicious lot! Excellent UserName by the way.
Candlelight8
0 Replies
 
perennialloner
 
  1  
Wed 12 Oct, 2016 06:30 pm
Quote:
One boy was known to counter-terrorism police as a teenage radical after he gained notoriety when he refused to stand for the national anthem as a schoolboy at East Hills High School last year.


Seriously? That makes you a teenage radical in Australia?
vikorr
 
  1  
Wed 12 Oct, 2016 10:20 pm
@perennialloner,
I daresay planning to behead someone in the name of Allah, and going out and buying Bayonets to carry it out...makes you a radical.

Perhaps if you read the rest of the article in the link?
perennialloner
 
  1  
Wed 12 Oct, 2016 11:04 pm
@vikorr,
I skimmed. I'm not saying that he is or isn't a teenage radical. I just find it strange that he was known as one after something like that. Was he already under suspicion and that confirmed things for the police? Or had the police looked for dirt on him after he refused to stand for the anthem? The article wasn't specific on why he refused to stand.
vikorr
 
  1  
Thu 13 Oct, 2016 06:07 pm
@perennialloner,
Quote:
I just find it strange that he was known as one after something like that. Was he already under suspicion and that confirmed things for the police? Or had the police looked for dirt on him after he refused to stand for the anthem?


Newspapers are well known for telling facts, but leaving information out, in order to generate emotion (ie. the difference between telling facts, and telling the truth). To be fair to newspapers though, in this case, police probably didn't tell them all the details of why they became interested. Police forces in Australia seem to be paranoid about that sort of thing. Perhaps it affects court cases, or perhaps it would give away operational reasons, or perhaps they are just secretive on this subject - who can tell why.

In any event, police also likely don't have the man power to check out people for reasons as simple as not standing for the national anthem (but it sounds good in a newspaper).

My understanding is that their are currently around 400-600 persons of interest under police observation in Australia. There are probably only just a little mor than that in counter terrorism police in the whole of Australia (I know Sydney/NSW has around 300, but it also has by far the largest Muslim proportion in Australia. Melbourne/VIC has the only other significant population. No other States have truly appeared on this radar ). Watching just a single person would be very labour intensive I should think. And if you divide the total police into just 4 shifts (3 shifts a day, and a spare one over days off / holidays etc) you are looking at around 100-150 police in Australia to monitor just those + persons of interest, plus intelligence (from schools, shops, counter terrorism hotline, police etc).

I do know that in France, the main reason so many terrorist attacks succeed is that their police do not have the man power to keep proper track of the threats.
vikorr
 
  1  
Thu 13 Oct, 2016 06:28 pm
@vikorr,
Speak of the Devil...

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/terror-arrests-teen-suspects-mother-didnt-report-him-despite-him-allegedly-warning-her-of-possible-attack/news-story/a133d9d54baf6b7ab5e6b59a357ddb86

Quote:
Terror arrests: Teen suspect’s mother didn’t report him despite him allegedly warning her of possible attack

THE mother of a teenage boy who was stopped by police moments before carrying out an alleged beheading plot did not report her radical son to authorities despite his boast to her he would carry out a terror attack “bigger” than the murder of Parramatta police worker Curtis Cheng.

The mother, who is married to a convicted terrorist, was told by her 16-year-old son in the days after ­Farhad Jabar murdered Cheng, that he wanted to attack police and do “something to them that they have never seen before’’, according to court documents.

The allegations were heard in court as new images emerged of the teen chanting alongside radicals at the violent 2012 Hyde Park protest.

A police source told The Daily Telegraph that, despite the teen’s radical beliefs, his mother had not raised any concerns with authorities. The Revesby boy was allegedly intercepted by police telling his mother in October last year: “When they come, I am going to do something to them that they have never seen before. I am going to do something bigger.”...


There's quite a bit more detail in the rest of the article. I'm actually surprised they released this. Usually the stated argument against releasing this much detail is that it would prejudice a trial.
Krumple
 
  1  
Thu 13 Oct, 2016 07:04 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

Speak of the Devil...

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/terror-arrests-teen-suspects-mother-didnt-report-him-despite-him-allegedly-warning-her-of-possible-attack/news-story/a133d9d54baf6b7ab5e6b59a357ddb86

Quote:
Terror arrests: Teen suspect’s mother didn’t report him despite him allegedly warning her of possible attack

THE mother of a teenage boy who was stopped by police moments before carrying out an alleged beheading plot did not report her radical son to authorities despite his boast to her he would carry out a terror attack “bigger” than the murder of Parramatta police worker Curtis Cheng.

The mother, who is married to a convicted terrorist, was told by her 16-year-old son in the days after ­Farhad Jabar murdered Cheng, that he wanted to attack police and do “something to them that they have never seen before’’, according to court documents.

The allegations were heard in court as new images emerged of the teen chanting alongside radicals at the violent 2012 Hyde Park protest.

A police source told The Daily Telegraph that, despite the teen’s radical beliefs, his mother had not raised any concerns with authorities. The Revesby boy was allegedly intercepted by police telling his mother in October last year: “When they come, I am going to do something to them that they have never seen before. I am going to do something bigger.”...


There's quite a bit more detail in the rest of the article. I'm actually surprised they released this. Usually the stated argument against releasing this much detail is that it would prejudice a trial.



A good example of unconditional love there..
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 15 Oct, 2016 04:50 am
@perennialloner,
perennialloner wrote:

I skimmed. I'm not saying that he is or isn't a teenage radical.


Vikorr only points out bad things Muslims do/plan, he's silent on anything good they do, or any form of terrorism perpetrated by non Muslims, which is why he's silent about this news story.

Quote:
Three men have been charged with plotting to bomb Somali immigrants at an apartment building and mosque in the US state of Kansas.

Curtis Allen, 49, Gavin Wright, 49, and Patrick Eugene Stein, 47, had gathered firearms and explosives for the attack, according to the US Justice Department.

The members of a militia group called the Crusaders also kept watch on the target in Garden City, officials said.

They allegedly planned to strike on 9 November, a day after the US elections.

The suspects had prepared a manifesto and conspired to detonate a bomb at apartments where Somalis were among some 120 residents, said prosecutors.




They allegedly discussed parking four explosives-packed vehicles at the corners of the complex to create a large blast in the meatpacking town.

Mr Stein offered to provide ammonium nitrate for the devices and contribute up to $300 (£246) for other materials, according to prosecutors.

If convicted, they face a maximum sentence of life in prison.

Acting US Attorney Tom Beall said the eight-month investigation had taken FBI agents "deep into a hidden culture of hatred and violence".

A confidential source attended meetings of the militia group to collect information, according to documents.

In one of those gatherings, papers said, there was a proposal to carry out an attack similar to the Orlando nightclub shooting.

Mr Beall said they ultimately decided to attack the building because of the number of Somalis who lived there.

Friday's charges prompted the Council on American-Islamic Relations to urge law enforcement to boost protection for US mosques.

"We ask our nation's political leaders, and particularly political candidates, to reject the growing Islamophobia in our nation," Nihad Awad, the group's national executive director, said in a statement.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37662899

Note the ages of the perpetrators, grown men, who fully knew what they were doing, not rebellious teenagers. That's a big difference.
vikorr
 
  0  
Sat 15 Oct, 2016 04:57 pm
@izzythepush,
Actually Izzy, your post is further proof of what I've been saying for a while.

Prior to the increase in Islamic terrorism, there were no terrorist attacks on western Muslim populations. Western Radicals against Islam/Muslims were quite few (compared to now).

What I've been saying for a while now is:

By Politicians not acknowledging the problem, western governments will slowly lose:
- the trust of the people on this issue; and
- control of the message on this issue
This will result in the population losing faith in the politicians to deal with what a growing percentage will see as a real issue. With increasing Islamic Terrorist attacks, and more closer to home, more vigilante/terrorist attacks will occur against our muslim populations. It will escalate roughly along the lines with the increasing Islamic Terrorism in the the West. No one wants innocent people, of any religion, being killed.

The above is also one of the reasons Trump has become so popular - because of the failure to admit the issue.

The above are things that the silencing majority (like yourself) contributes to, because if it was allowed to be discussed openly, then more people would understand the problem, as would politicians. Things could then be done in a way that reduces terrorism (more effectively), and maintains the trust of the people.

Admit the problem, understand it's sources, and then there is a basis accurately deal with the root causes of the problem while maintaining the trust of the people.

Don't admit the problem, suppress discussion and understanding of it, and lose the trust of the people, and watch a corresponding rise in attacks against innocent muslims.

This is something you simply refuse to understand, but events are bearing this out.

Were you to start a thread on attacks against western muslims, and maintain it - It would provide evidence of the predicted escalation as it occurs. I'd even reference it in this thread.
Krumple
 
  0  
Sat 15 Oct, 2016 05:46 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

Actually Izzy, your post is further proof of what I've been saying for a while.

Prior to the increase in Islamic terrorism, there were no terrorist attacks on western Muslim populations. Western Radicals against Islam/Muslims were quite few (compared to now).

What I've been saying for a while now is:

By Politicians not acknowledging the problem, western governments will slowly lose:
- the trust of the people on this issue; and
- control of the message on this issue
This will result in the population losing faith in the politicians to deal with what a growing percentage will see as a real issue. With increasing Islamic Terrorist attacks, and more closer to home, more vigilante/terrorist attacks will occur against our muslim populations. It will escalate roughly along the lines with the increasing Islamic Terrorism in the the West. No one wants innocent people, of any religion, being killed.

The above is also one of the reasons Trump has become so popular - because of the failure to admit the issue.

The above are things that the silencing majority (like yourself) contributes to, because if it was allowed to be discussed openly, then more people would understand the problem, as would politicians. Things could then be done in a way that reduces terrorism (more effectively), and maintains the trust of the people.

Admit the problem, understand it's sources, and then there is a basis accurately deal with the root causes of the problem while maintaining the trust of the people.

Don't admit the problem, suppress discussion and understanding of it, and lose the trust of the people, and watch a corresponding rise in attacks against innocent muslims.

This is something you simply refuse to understand, but events are bearing this out.

Were you to start a thread on attacks against western muslims, and maintain it - It would provide evidence of the predicted escalation as it occurs. I'd even reference it in this thread.


I think hillary will allow in the refuges and cintinue to allow them into the US. The extremists will catch on if they arent already planning, to sneak in radicals who will carry out attacks inside the US.

Liberals have a good theory, help out when you can. But this generocity has the chance to become abused by the A-holes who think they are carring out their gods wishes.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 15 Oct, 2016 07:14 pm
@Krumple,
It's unfortunate that the vetting process is not full proof. Half are children, and 25% are people over 60 years old.
http://www.npr.org/2015/11/17/456395388/paris-attacks-ignite-debate-over-u-s-refugee-policy
0 Replies
 
sky123
 
  3  
Sun 16 Oct, 2016 02:56 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
Prior to the increase in Islamic terrorism, there were no terrorist attacks on western Muslim populations. Western Radicals against Islam/Muslims were quite few (compared to now).

Vikkor, with my respect, many times you just give your opinion as statement of fact while they are just your understanding of the world.
You just hijacked the whole reality by your statement..
vikorr
 
  1  
Sun 16 Oct, 2016 04:25 pm
@sky123,
Hello Sky

All we can do is give our understanding of the world, and discuss what it is based on. I am very open to people correcting me through (relevant) evidence, and reasoned argument from that evidence. You are more than welcome to supply stats to display any errors I make.

In terms of the precise nature of my statement that you quoted, I had intended to ammend the first part to a comparatively statement (just like the second part is), because I wasn't certain of the absoluteness...but I missed the edit deadline.

--------------------------------------

In any event, as evidence of what my opinion is based one - examples of what I am saying, here, domestically in Australia - prior to Islamic terrorist attacks on the West, there were no organised anti-muslim organisations.

Now, there are:
- Reclaim Australia (Anti Muslims protest group)
- United Patriots Front (far right wing, often violent, protest group)
- Australian Defence League (similarities to UPF)
- RiseUpAustralia Party (anti-islam/muslim political party)
- Australian Liberty Alliance (anti-islam/muslim political party)
- Pauline Hansons One Nation Party (anti-Islam/Muslim political party)

You can look each of them up to see when they came into existence. You can also search for anti-muslim organisations prior to 2000 in Australia (though most of the above started around 2010 onwards). It will give you some idea of what I am talking about.

One Nation is a bit of an exception in terms of length of existence -, it started back around late 90's early 2000 on an anti-immigration platform, and died out. But on the basis of anti-islam/muslim it has come back to life, winning several seats at our elections this year.

Krumple
 
  1  
Sun 16 Oct, 2016 05:15 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

Hello Sky

All we can do is give our understanding of the world, and discuss what it is based on. I am very open to people correcting me through (relevant) evidence, and reasoned argument from that evidence. You are more than welcome to supply stats to display any errors I make.

In terms of the precise nature of my statement that you quoted, I had intended to ammend the first part to a comparatively statement (just like the second part is), because I wasn't certain of the absoluteness...but I missed the edit deadline.

--------------------------------------

In any event, as evidence of what my opinion is based one - examples of what I am saying, here, domestically in Australia - prior to Islamic terrorist attacks on the West, there were no organised anti-muslim organisations.

Now, there are:
- Reclaim Australia (Anti Muslims protest group)
- United Patriots Front (far right wing, often violent, protest group)
- Australian Defence League (similarities to UPF)
- RiseUpAustralia Party (anti-islam/muslim political party)
- Australian Liberty Alliance (anti-islam/muslim political party)
- Pauline Hansons One Nation Party (anti-Islam/Muslim political party)

You can look each of them up to see when they came into existence. You can also search for anti-muslim organisations prior to 2000 in Australia (though most of the above started around 2010 onwards). It will give you some idea of what I am talking about.

One Nation is a bit of an exception in terms of length of existence -, it started back around late 90's early 2000 on an anti-immigration platform, and died out. But on the basis of anti-islam/muslim it has come back to life, winning several seats at our elections this year.




Looks like Australians are a head of the curve as it should be.
0 Replies
 
perennialloner
 
  3  
Sun 16 Oct, 2016 06:01 pm
@vikorr,
Politicians do acknowledge that terrorism in the name of Islam is wrong. You however want them to admit that Islam is a fundamentally violent ideology, because, according to you, terrorist attacks perpetrated against Muslims are in response to the reality that Islam and its fundamentally violent ideology are going to infiltrate and contaminate the West, or whatever version of that it is you're spinning. Really, though, they're just proof that some people are stupid and bigoted as they're completely okay with murdering people because they assume the terrorist they saw on the news and the Pakistani family next door are the same for one reason--they both identify as Muslim.

It's ridiculous to me that you made a horrible terrorist attack seem acceptable by insinuating that it wouldn't have happened if it weren't for Islamic terrorism, yet all the while you either refuse to accept or reduce the importance of the increase in Islamic terrorism as a RESPONSE to Western interference even though you happily point out that white terrorism against Muslims is a RESPONSE to Islamic terrorism.
vikorr
 
  1  
Sun 16 Oct, 2016 06:46 pm
@perennialloner,
Quote:
they're just proof that some people are stupid and bigoted as they're completely okay with murdering people because they assume the terrorist they saw on the news and the Pakistani family next door are the same for one reason--they both identify as Muslim.
Yep, this is proof of stupidity, a violent/unempathetic/compassionless nature, and criminality.

Quote:
It's ridiculous to me that you made a horrible terrorist attack seem acceptable
It would be ridiculous to me if a horrible terrorist attack were acceptable. As I said 'no one wants to see innocents of any religion killed'. Should I be surprised that you glossed over that?

Quote:
by insinuating that it wouldn't have happened if it weren't for Islamic terrorism,

Quote:
according to you, terrorist attacks perpetrated against Muslims are in response to the reality that Islam and its fundamentally violent ideology are going to infiltrate and contaminate the West
This is not what I said.

The difference between your statements and mine, is one of absolutes
-your version suggests all terrorist attacks against Muslims are the result of Muslims terrorist attacks against the West
- mine that an roughly corresponding increase based such terrorist attacks (which isn't an absolute causal statement on individual attrocities) will occur (and is occurring)

This is human nature. This isn't even insinuation - this is being borne out in front of our eyes as reality. It is seen in the rising percentage of anti-islamism/muslims, and the rising attacks against Muslims.

I have this as evidence supporting what I've been saying.

You offer no workable explanation for this rising anti-muslim attitude.
-Why are they hating at this point in time, so much more than previously?
- Why are they organising at this point in time, so much more than previously?


Is it your position that:
- all westerners will & should sit quietly by while Islamic Terrorism in the west ever increases? Do you think this is a probable outcome?

- you expect all people to trust a government that says 'they aren't muslims'...when they've been muslim all their lives?

- you expect all people to trust a government that says 'they've hijacked Islam' ...while so many of them are shouting allahu akbhar as they commit their offences?

- you expect all people to trust a government that can't stop terrorist attacks?

Trust is essential to a government dealing with this in the most effective way...and they are losing it in many demographics of society.

Do you see any end in sight for Islamic Terrorism in the West?

Quote:
Politicians do acknowledge that terrorism in the name of Islam is wrong
Their constant refrain is:
- Islam is a religion of peace
- The terrorists are not muslim
- the terrorists have hijacked Islam

So what they do is try to distance the religion from the event....even while the crazies are screaming allahu akbhar while they blow themselves up, and such.

You've had this conversation with me before, so you know that is one of my issues with politicians handling of this matter. The other is that this refrain negatively affects their handling of it. The other is that this refrain will lose the trust of the people. The next is that those combined, will increase the attacks against Muslims. The next is that this will increase attacks against the west. And then we have a vicious cycle.







vikorr
 
  1  
Sun 16 Oct, 2016 07:20 pm
@vikorr,
Speaking of rising anti-Islam/Muslim sentiment - this article on one of the anti-muslim parties I meantioned in the post to Sky:

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/postelection-support-for-one-nation-soars-in-the-latest-newspoll-results/news-story/38ab8d493b78614712ecf9a3d287d607

Quote:
Post-election support for One Nation soars in the latest Newspoll results

ONE Nation’s comeback took many Australians by surprise, but the latest Newspoll survey shows support for the party has increased fourfold across the country and almost doubled in Queensland since the July 2 Federal Election.

The Newspoll survey reveals support for One Nation in the lower house has risen to six per cent from 1.3 per cent on election day.

Its primary vote has bounced to 10 per cent in Queensland, up from 5.5 per cent at the election, The Australian reports on Monday.

Speaking on Sunrise about terror citizenship laws this morning, the One Nation leader said the immediate family of anyone stripped of their citizenship due to terrorism affiliations should be deported as well.
0 Replies
 
perennialloner
 
  3  
Mon 17 Oct, 2016 05:54 am
@vikorr,
What you said does not take away from the fact that you made action against that terrorist attack seem less necessary than against Islamic terrorist attacks.

Quote:
your version suggests all terrorist attacks against Muslims are the result of Muslims terrorist attacks against the West


That isn't what I said though, is it? I talked about the increase in Islamic terrorism as a response to Western interference, because that's the Islamic terrorism that you care about.

I believe it's hypocritical for you to frame non-Muslim terrorism against Muslims as a response, as I said before, when you have consistently ignored the importance of socio-political context when it comes to Islamic terrorism in both the West and the ME.

In others words, you get worked up when people "apologize" for Islam, the religion that more than a billion people identify with, yet you apologized for a white terrorist attack against Muslims by framing it like some sort of counter terrorism operation and then placing it within the growing movement of counter terrorism through terrorism that you described.

I'm positing that the way non-Muslims have been radicalized to murder Muslims is the same way Muslims have been radicalized to murder Westerners.

You are intent on differentiating Islamic terrorism as fundamentally more dangerous than "regular" terrorism, because Islam is fundamentally different/more dangerous than other religion. I reject that premise.

Quote:
You offer no workable explanation for this rising anti-muslim attitude.
-Why are they hating at this point in time, so much more than previously?
- Why are they organising at this point in time, so much more than previously?


I did offer a workable explanation. I said people who have an anti-Muslim attitude are stupid and bigoted because the conflate the terrorist they see on the news with Muslims anywhere. Bigoted people don't like contending with the prejudices that have been cultivated in their upbringing or that they've developed later in life for some reason or another. So when they receive "confirmation" that their prejudices are right, they hang on to them as support of their denial and some take to violent action.

They are hating at this point in time because they can't differentiate between a radical few and the vast majority of the population. They are also hating now because they feel a danger closer to home and 'their' people. That's why they're okay with murdering Muslim citizens of their country. They were never seen as 'their' people.

Quote:
Is it your position that:
- all westerners will & should sit quietly by while Islamic Terrorism in the west ever increases? Do you think this is a probable outcome?


That's not my position at all. My position is that people shouldn't make Muslims feel unsafe in the countries they live in and focus on condemning the people responsible for the problem. Islam and the average Muslim are not the people responsible for the problem.

Quote:
- you expect all people to trust a government that says 'they aren't muslims'...when they've been muslim all their lives?


I don't care if the government calls them Muslims or not. It's a matter of perspective. I care that Muslim as a label isn't seen as the same as a terrorist just as Christians aren't seen as the equivalent of the KKK.

Quote:
- you expect all people to trust a government that can't stop terrorist attacks?


I expect that people don't kill people for being Muslim.

Quote:
Trust is essential to a government dealing with this in the most effective way...and they are losing it in many demographics of society.


You think more people will trust the government if it takes to profiling Muslims?

sky123
 
  2  
Mon 17 Oct, 2016 12:57 pm
@vikorr,
If in your mind terrorism is just summarized into a simple minded, bigoted, brainwashed man having a bomb and trying to blow it up between the crowd, yes I admit that you see it more from radical Muslims than western people.
But the kind of terrorism that we see from west and on top of that from America, is different and by far more tricky because they can conceal the reality by their dominant media..
If you admit that bombarding airliner of a country is terrorism so let's have a search on what America did to Iran air flight 655..
If you admit that bombarding civilians is terrorism, so let's take a look at unmanned aircrafts of America in Afghanistan..
If you admit that killing 1500 Palestinians in 11 days of bombarding is terrorism..
..
The discussion is too long and I am reluctant to speak about things that disconnect us rather than connect us..
I can just say that after the terrorist attacks in western countries the leader of Iran wrote two letters to western people especially youths. Please have a read.
Without doubt they are helpful..
____________________________________________________

In the name of God, the Beneficent the Merciful

To the Youth in Europe and North America,

The recent events in France and similar ones in some other Western countries have convinced me to directly talk to you about them. I am addressing you, [the youth], not because I overlook your parents, rather it is because the future of your nations and countries will be in your hands; and also I find that the sense of quest for truth is more vigorous and attentive in your hearts.

I don’t address your politicians and statesmen either in this writing because I believe that they have consciously separated the route of politics from the path of righteousness and truth.

I would like to talk to you about Islam, particularly the image that is presented to you as Islam. Many attempts have been made over the past two decades, almost since the disintegration of the Soviet Union, to place this great religion in the seat of a horrifying enemy. The provocation of a feeling of horror and hatred and its utilization has unfortunately a long record in the political history of the West.

Here, I don’t want to deal with the different phobias with which the Western nations have thus far been indoctrinated. A cursory review of recent critical studies of history would bring home to you the fact that the Western governments’ insincere and hypocritical treatment of other nations and cultures has been censured in new historiographies.

The histories of the United States and Europe are ashamed of slavery, embarrassed by the colonial period and chagrined at the oppression of people of color and non-Christians. Your researchers and historians are deeply ashamed of the bloodsheds wrought in the name of religion between the Catholics and Protestants or in the name of nationality and ethnicity during the First and Second World Wars. This approach is admirable.

By mentioning a fraction of this long list, I don’t want to reproach history; rather I would like you to ask your intellectuals as to why the public conscience in the West awakens and comes to its senses after a delay of several decades or centuries. Why should the revision of collective conscience apply to the distant past and not to the current problems? Why is it that attempts are made to prevent public awareness regarding an important issue such as the treatment of Islamic culture and thought?

You know well that humiliation and spreading hatred and illusionary fear of the “other” have been the common base of all those oppressive profiteers. Now, I would like you to ask yourself why the old policy of spreading “phobia” and hatred has targeted Islam and Muslims with an unprecedented intensity. Why does the power structure in the world want Islamic thought to be marginalized and remain latent? What concepts and values in Islam disturb the programs of the super powers and what interests are safeguarded in the shadow of distorting the image of Islam? Hence, my first request is: Study and research the incentives behind this widespread tarnishing of the image of Islam.

My second request is that in reaction to the flood of prejudgments and disinformation campaigns, try to gain a direct and firsthand knowledge of this religion. The right logic requires that you understand the nature and essence of what they are frightening you about and want you to keep away from.

I don’t insist that you accept my reading or any other reading of Islam. What I want to say is: Don’t allow this dynamic and effective reality in today’s world to be introduced to you through resentments and prejudices. Don’t allow them to hypocritically introduce their own recruited terrorists as representatives of Islam.

Receive knowledge of Islam from its primary and original sources. Gain information about Islam through the Qur’an and the life of its great Prophet. I would like to ask you whether you have directly read the Qur’an of the Muslims. Have you studied the teachings of the Prophet of Islam and his humane, ethical doctrines? Have you ever received the message of Islam from any sources other than the media?

Have you ever asked yourself how and on the basis of which values has Islam established the greatest scientific and intellectual civilization of the world and raised the most distinguished scientists and intellectuals throughout several centuries?

I would like you not to allow the derogatory and offensive image-buildings to create an emotional gulf between you and the reality, taking away the possibility of an impartial judgment from you. Today, the communication media have removed the geographical borders. Hence, don’t allow them to besiege you within fabricated and mental borders.

Although no one can individually fill the created gaps, each one of you can construct a bridge of thought and fairness over the gaps to illuminate yourself and your surrounding environment. While this preplanned challenge between Islam and you, the youth, is undesirable, it can raise new questions in your curious and inquiring minds. Attempts to find answers to these questions will provide you with an appropriate opportunity to discover new truths.

Therefore, don’t miss the opportunity to gain proper, correct and unbiased understanding of Islam so that hopefully, due to your sense of responsibility toward the truth, future generations would write the history of this current interaction between Islam and the West with a clearer conscience and lesser resentment.


Sayyid Ali Khamenei

21st Jan. 2015

_____________________________________________________

In the Name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful



To the Youth in Western Countries,

The bitter events brought about by blind terrorism in France have once again, moved me to speak to you young people. For me, it is unfortunate that such incidents would have to create the framework for a conversation, however the truth is that if painful matters do not create the grounds for finding solutions and mutual consultation, then the damage caused will be multiplied.
The pain of any human being anywhere in the world causes sorrow for a fellow human being. The sight of a child losing his life in the presence of his loved ones, a mother whose joy for her family turns into mourning, a husband who is rushing the lifeless body of his spouse to some place and the spectator who does not know whether he will be seeing the final scene of life- these are scenes that rouse the emotions and feelings of any human being. Anyone who has benefited from affection and humanity is affected and disturbed by witnessing these scenes- whether it occurs in France or in Palestine or Iraq or Lebanon or Syria.

Without a doubt, the one-and-a-half billion Muslims also have these feelings and abhor and are revolted by the perpetrators and those responsible for these calamities. The issue, however, is that if today’s pain is not used to build a better and safer future, then it will just turn into bitter and fruitless memories. I genuinely believe that it is only you the youth who by learning the lessons of today’s hardship, have the power to discover new means for building the future and who can be barriers in the misguided path that has brought the west to its current impasse.

It is correct that today terrorism is our common worry. However, it is necessary for you to know that the insecurity and strain that you experienced during the recent events, differ from the pain that the people of Iraq, Yemen, Syria and Afghanistan have been experiencing for many years, in two significant ways. First, the Islamic world has been the victim of terror and brutality to a larger extent territorially, to greater amount quantitatively and for a longer period in terms of time. Second, that unfortunately this violence has been supported by certain great powers through various methods and effective means.

Today, there are very few people who are uninformed about the role of the United States of America in creating, nurturing and arming al-Qaeda, the Taliban and their inauspicious successors. Besides this direct support, the overt and well-known supporters of takfiri terrorism- despite having the most backward political systems- are standing arrayed as allies of the west while the most pioneering, brightest and most dynamic democrats in the region are suppressed mercilessly. The prejudiced response of the west to the awakening movement in the Islamic world is an illustrative example of the contradictory western policies.
The other side of these contradictory policies is seen in supporting the state terrorism of Israel. The oppressed people of Palestine have experienced the worst kind of terrorism for the last sixty years. If the people of Europe have now taken refuge in their homes for a few days and refrain from being present in busy places- it is decades that a Palestinian family is not secure even in its own home from the Zionist regime’s death and destruction machinery. What kind of atrocious violence today is comparable to that of the settlement constructions of the Zionist regime?

This regime- without ever being seriously and significantly censured by its influential allies or even by the so-called independent international organizations- everyday demolishes the homes of Palestinians and destroys their orchards and farms. This is done without even giving them time to gather their belongings or agricultural products and usually it is done in front of the terrified and tear-filled eyes of women and children who witness the brutal beatings of their family members who in some cases are being dragged away to gruesome torture chambers. In today’s world, do we know of any other violence on this scale and scope and for such an extended period of time?

Shooting down a woman in the middle of the street for the crime of protesting against a soldier who is armed to the teeth- if this is not terrorism, what is? This barbarism, because it is being done by the armed forces of an occupying government, should not be called extremism? Or maybe only because these scenes have been seen repeatedly on television screens for sixty years, they should no longer stir our consciences.
The military invasions of the Islamic world in recent years- with countless victims- are another example of the contradictory logic of the west. The assaulted countries, in addition to the human damage caused, have lost their economic and industrial infrastructure, their movement towards growth and development has been stopped or delayed and in some cases, has been thrown back decades. Despite all this, they are rudely being asked not to see themselves as oppressed. How can a country be turned into ruins, have its cities and towns covered in dust and then be told that it should please not view itself as oppressed? Instead of enticements to not understand and to not mention disasters, would not an honest apology be better? The pain that the Islamic world has suffered in these years from the hypocrisy and duplicity of the invaders is not less than the pain from the material damage.

Dear youth! I have the hope that you- now or in the future- can change this mentality corrupted by duplicity, a mentality whose highest skill is hiding long-term goals and adorning malevolent objectives. In my opinion, the first step in creating security and peace is reforming this violence-breeding mentality. As long as double-standards dominate western policies, as long as terrorism- in the view of its powerful supporters- is divided into “good” and “bad” types, and as long as governmental interests are given precedence over human values and ethics, the roots of violence should not be searched for in other places.
Unfortunately, these roots have taken hold in the depths of western cultural policies over the course of many years and they have caused a soft and silent invasion. Many countries of the world take pride in their local and national cultures, cultures which through development and regeneration have soundly nurtured human societies for centuries. The Islamic world is not an exception to this. However in the current era, the western world with the use of advanced tools is insisting on the cloning and replication of its culture on a global scale. I consider the imposition of western culture upon other peoples and the trivialization of independent cultures as a form of silent violence and extreme harmfulness.

Humiliating rich cultures and insulting the most honored parts of these, is occurring while the alternative culture being offered in no way has any qualification for being a replacement. For example, the two elements of “aggression” and “moral promiscuity” which unfortunately have become the main elements of western culture, have even degraded the position and acceptability of its source region.

So now the question is: are we “sinners” for not wanting an aggressive, vulgar and fatuous culture? Are we to be blamed for blocking the flood of impropriety that is directed towards our youth in the shape of various forms of quasi-art? I do not deny the importance and value of cultural interaction. Whenever these interactions are conducted in natural circumstances and with respect for the receiving culture, they result in growth, development and richness. On the contrary, inharmonious interactions have been unsuccessful and harmful impositions.

We have to state with full regret that vile groups such as DAESH are the spawn of such ill-fated pairings with imported cultures. If the matter was simply theological, we would have had to witness such phenomena before the colonialist era, yet history shows the contrary. Authoritative historical records clearly show how colonialist confluence of extremist and rejected thoughts in the heart of a Bedouin tribe, planted the seed of extremism in this region. How then is it possible that such garbage as DAESH comes out of one of the most ethical and humane religious schools which as part of its inner core, includes the notion that taking the life of one human being is equivalent to killing the whole of humanity?

One has to ask why people who are born in Europe and who have been intellectually and mentally nurtured in that environment are attracted to such groups? Can we really believe that people with only one or two trips to war zones, suddenly become so extreme that they can riddle the bodies of their compatriots with bullets? On this matter, we certainly cannot forget about the effects of a life nurtured in a pathologic culture in a corrupt environment borne out of violence. On this matter, we need complete analyses, analyses that see the hidden and apparent corruptions. Maybe a deep hate- planted in the years of economic and industrial growth and borne out of inequality and possibly legal and structural prejudice- created ideas that every few years appear in a sickening manner.
In any case, you are the ones that have to uncover the apparent layers of your own society and untie and disentangle the knots and resentments. Fissures have to be sealed, not deepened. Hasty reactions are a major mistake when fighting terrorism which only widens the chasms. Any rushed and emotional reaction which would isolate, intimidate and create more anxiety for the Muslim communities living in Europe and America- which are comprised of millions of active and responsible human beings- and which would deprive them of their basic rights more than has already happened and which would drive them away from society- not only will not solve the problem but will increase the chasms and resentments.

Superficial measures and reactions, especially if they take legal forms, will do nothing but increase the current polarizations, open the way for future crises and will result in nothing else. According to reports received, some countries in Europe have issued guidelines encouraging citizens to spy on Muslims. This behavior is unjust and we all know that pursuing injustice has the characteristic of unwanted reversibility. Besides, the Muslims do not deserve such ill-treatment. For centuries, the western world has known Muslims well- the day that westerners were guests in Islamic lands and were attracted to the riches of their hosts and on another day when they were hosts and benefitted from the efforts and thoughts of Muslims- they generally experienced nothing but kindness and forbearance.

Therefore I want you the youth to lay the foundations for a correct and honorable interaction with the Islamic world based on correct understanding, deep insight and lessons learned from horrible experiences. In such a case and in the not too distant future, you will witness the edifice built on these firm foundations which creates a shade of confidence and trust which cools the crown of its architect, a warmth of security and peace that it bequests on them and a blaze of hope in a bright future which illuminates the canvass of the earth.

Sayyid Ali Khamenei

8th of Azar, 1394 - 29th of Nov, 2015

_______________________________________________
Find the latest letter in the below address:
http://english.khamenei.ir/news/2681/Today-terrorism-is-our-common-worry
Also please note that DAESH is the Arabic abbreviation of ISIL.

vikorr
 
  1  
Mon 17 Oct, 2016 02:34 pm
@perennialloner,
Quote:
What you said does not take away from the fact that you made action against that terrorist attack seem less necessary than against Islamic terrorist attacks.
We disagree quite strongly here.

But I can see how apologists would want to come to such a conclusion as yours. In their mind, the reasons for the rise of anti-muslim sentiment sentiment is just ignorance and bigotry...even while it gathers apace to the Islamic terrorist attacks on the west...but this in their mind...that does not contribute at all to the growth of anti-muslim attitudes. To deny such a link is very delusional.

They think the best way they think to deal with this, is to promote ignorance ( by blocking open and honest discussion), then complain about the ignorance of such people.

In denying, they offer no path to mitigation, but complain about the outcomes (against muslims)

Talk about head in the sand.

Discuss it openly, promote understanding of the religion - both the good and the contributing parts...and you will evententually find a better equilibrium. This is a long term path...but the other path just goes down a vicious cycle.

Quote:
I believe it's hypocritical for you to frame non-Muslim terrorism against Muslims as a response, as I said before, when you have consistently ignored the importance of socio-political context when it comes to Islamic terrorism in both the West and the ME.
You very obviously haven't properly followed the entirety of this thread....with you, that's what's been addressed, because that's what you've raised. With others, I've discussed the things you think I haven't.

Quote:
You are intent on differentiating Islamic terrorism as fundamentally more dangerous than "regular" terrorism, because Islam is fundamentally different/more dangerous than other religion. I reject that premise.
I would have not issue with the red part whatsoever, if you actually new anything about the Quran, Haddiths, and Mohammeds life...which is what Islam, and the Sharia is based on. But your rejection is based on ignorance of those things, and so then, conjecture about the part the religion plays.

The issue with the black part is that it is happening now. And it is happening in the name of Islam. And you don't wish to discuss why it is happening in the name of Islam.

Quote:
I did offer a workable explanation. I said people who have an anti-Muslim attitude are stupid and bigoted because the conflate the terrorist they see on the news with Muslims anywhere
That is not a workable answer. That is a complaint. And only against one side.

A workable answer matches what is happening in the world: (in this case): why terrorism is being done in the name of islam, a way to reduce that, and a way to reduce anti-islam attitude, to prevent the targetting of innocent muslims.


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