Are there any peaceful muslim nations?

Sofia wrote:

The anti-non-Muslim tenets are there for all to read--the determining factor for each Muslim is whether or not they follow the tenets. In my mind, the religion is dangerous, and should be openly refuted, citing the passages that incite and/ or excuse murder.

Go right ahead. I'm not a big fan of any religion, & most, in the hands of the wrong people, are dangerous. My familiarity with the Qur'an is limited though, so I'll cite just one example of what you describe from the Bible (I can provide more if you're interested).

Deuteronomy 13 (NIV) 6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God [...] 12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.

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Actually, Monger - I am very interested - because I have been pondering this question about Islam - more examples would be very good to hear.

I agree with you about all religions, by the way. And religion-like systems of belief.....

I do wonder if some christians will deny the relevance of non new testament "godly" utterences?

Are there similar examples from the new testament?

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As I said-- a Christian, defined by one following Christ--would know that Christ did not teach the behavior described in Monger's passage.

I do not subscribe to any writings, which are against Christ's teaching. So, all murder is off limits to me.

These laws also included the 'right' to stone to death an adulterer--but when Christ came upon such a scene, put an effective stop to it.

Why, do you think?

Can you find an example of Christ supporting violence? Of leading his followers into violence?

I can understand, and appreciate Monger and others perhaps seeing similar stuff in the OT Bible, and the Koran. I appreciate the chance to get deeper into the issue.

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Sofia wrote:

Can you find an example of Christ supporting violence? Of leading his followers into violence?

Sofia,
How about this verse, where Jesus is speaking to his followers:
Luke 22:36-
"Then said Jesus unto them, 'But now, ... he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.'"

Why would Jesus advise his followers to buy weapons that are used in violence?
This appears to be advising them to get ready to use violence...?

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dlowan wrote:

Actually, Monger - I am very interested - because I have been pondering this question about Islam - more examples would be very good to hear.

Alrighty then. A few more regarding murder for getting involved in the "wrong" religious practices:

[size=11][url=http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Zechariah+13%3A2-3&search=&version=NIV&language=english&optional.x=0&optional.y=0][b]Zechariah 13:2-3[/b][/url] [b]2[/b] "On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more," declares the LORD Almighty. "I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land. [b]3[/b] And if anyone still prophesies, his father and mother, to whom he was born, will say to him, 'You must die, because you have told lies in the LORD's name.' When he prophesies, his own parents will stab him. [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Exodus+22%3A18%2C20&search=&version=NIV&language=english&optional.x=0&optional.y=0][b]Exodus 22:18,20[/b][/url] [b]18[/b] Do not allow a sorceress to live. [b]20[/b] Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Deuteronomy+17%3A2%2C3%2C5&search=&version=NIV&language=english&optional.x=0&optional.y=0][b]Deuteronomy 17:2-3,5[/b][/url] [b]2[/b] If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, [b]3[/b] and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, [b]5[/b] take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death.[/size]

And since Sofia was talking simply about advocating murder, here are a just a few of the more famous Biblical reasons why you should kill someone...

[size=11][url=http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Exodus+35%3A2&search=&version=NIV&language=english&optional.x=0&optional.y=0][b]Exodus 35:2[/b][/url] For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD . Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Leviticus+20%3A13&search=&version=NIV&language=english&optional.x=0&optional.y=0][b]Leviticus 20:13[/b][/url] If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Deuteronomy+21%3A18%2C19%2C21&search=&version=NIV&language=english&optional.x=0&optional.y=0][b]Deuteronomy 21:18-19,21[/b][/url] [b]18[/b] If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, [b]19[/b] his father and mother shall take hold of him [...] [b]21[/b]Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death.[/size]

dlowan wrote:

I do wonder if some christians will deny the relevance of non new testament "godly" utterences?

Are there similar examples from the new testament?

Similar to the first passage I quoted, not exactly. But religious exclusivity & intolerance is a consistent theme of the Bible (though there is some contradiction to that theme).

In the Old Testament god likes to punish everyone else for following the wrong religion, or deviating from "proper" religious practices. In some cases (as shown), they were seen as having no right to live. In Joshua & elsewhere, god tells the Israelites to commit genocide & mass crimes against humanity, the victims being tribes who followed Pagan religions.

In the New Testament (the book of John, for example), "the Jews" are vilified & called the sons of Satan. They & their descendents are held responsible for Jesus' death.

So yeah, that sort of intolerance can certainly be justified by the Bible, including the New Testament.

(Edited to add the hyperlinks)

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sofia wrote:

How can one decry the oppression of women--and allow sentiments such as he expressed to go unchallenged? Oppression of women IS common among Muslims. Belief in superiority over Christians and Jews--and the right to kill them is a basic belief in Islam. How do you reconcile this with YOUR beliefs? How is this different that KKK or skinhead affiliation?

Who I'm talking with, an idol?

I TOLD YOU THERE IS NO OPPRESSION OF WOMENS IN ISLAM.

Who said we can kill Jews and Christians based on they believe……………..?

Ohhh god, you read a lot for Ali Sina , don't you? and similar lairs

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You can find good reasons for my opinion in the writings of Glad to be Muslim...

Yeah, show me?

Stop claiming that you know Islam better than Muslims……..oggggggggggggg

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glad_to_be_muslim wrote:

I TOLD YOU THERE IS NO OPPRESSION OF WOMENS IN ISLAM.

...

Who said we can kill Jews and Christians based on they believe..?

No need to shout.

Yes, the Qur'an in many places teaches religious tolerance & it certainly helped improve the treatment of many women of its day, but there IS material there that can be interpreted otherwise. You seem very content to selectively ignore Islamic writings that go against how you would like your religion to be viewed.

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Sofia wrote:

I do not subscribe to any writings, which are against Christ's teaching.

That's interesting. I actually think it's better than swallowing the work (Bible) on the whole but it puts you in an odd situation in which you have to reject a lot of the Biblical god's word.

Out of curiosity, if that problematic for you? Not a gotcha, I hope it isn't since the Biblical god is a bit heavy handed and violent.

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LINK

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Monger wrote:

glad_to_be_muslim wrote:
I TOLD YOU THERE IS NO OPPRESSION OF WOMENS IN ISLAM.

...

Who said we can kill Jews and Christians based on they believe……………..?

No need to shout.

Yes, the Qur'an in many places teaches religious tolerance & it certainly helped improve the treatment of many women of its day, but there IS material there that can be interpreted otherwise. You seem very content to selectively ignore Islamic writings that go against how you would like your religion to be viewed.

first, this is the 3rd of 4th time i tell her that there is no oppression in islam, she keeps saying that without no proves....

second what you you mean, how how you would like your religion to be viewed.?

the way it is, not lies no miss translation.

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Sofia- Most Christians (maybe not you) condemn homosexuality on religious grounds, usually citing Leviticus from the Old Testament. Where in the New Testament is there condemnation of homosexuality? Sorry if this is a bit tangential.

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flyboy804 wrote:

Where in the New Testament is there condemnation of homosexuality?

Romans 1:26-27

[b]26[/b] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: [b]27[/b] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

This passage is from a chapter that is basically saying that the homosexuality was a punishment from God. Other passages speak of punishing homosexuality but this one is interesting in that homosexuality itself is seen as the punishment.

1 Timothy 1:9-10

[b]9[/b] Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, [b]10[/b] For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

I Corinthians 6:9

[b]9[/b] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [b]10[/b] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

That there basically says they'll go to hell. Thing is, all of the above is contradicted elsewhere in the New Testament.

Jude 1:7

[b]7[/b] Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Validating the notion that burning people to death over homosexuality is acceptable punishment and going on to say that they will continue to burn forever.

Some backward stuff, this Bible. Even the "New" Testament.

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Craven writes:

Quote:

Some backward stuff, this Bible. Even the "New" Testament

Not to further belabor a point that has been considerably belabored on other threads, some might think it 'backward' to assign 21st century interpretation and morality to documents that are more than 2000 years old. It is an error born of 'conventional wisdom' which, as we all are pretty much agreed, is not authoritative.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Craven writes:

Quote:
Some backward stuff, this Bible. Even the "New" Testament

Not to further belabor a point that has been considerably belabored on other threads, some might think it 'backward' to assign 21st century interpretation and morality to documents that are more than 2000 years old. It is an error born of 'conventional wisdom' which, as we all are pretty much agreed, is not authoritative.

That doesn't make any sense Foxfyre, just as it didn't the last time.

You can't show any flaw in "interpretation". You just repeat the charge and never substantiate it because you are unable to do so.

You frequently dismiss criticism of the Bible and invoke ambiguous claims that some "interpretation" or "context" is in error. You can never point what it is out of course, but you don't let that stop you.

In any case, this time it was more than just a repeated unsubstantiated and weak argument. It was an ironic slip up.

See, Fox, you can't assert something is not backwards by saying it needs to be interpreted from a backwards standpoint.

"It's not primitive when you interpret it with a primitive mindset "

Laughing

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And, in my opinion, you proclaiming it 'backward' does not make it so, especially when accurate translation in context completely changes the content and intent of those passages. I fully appreciate you have not been exposed to that kind of Bible teaching and therefore don't believe it. That doesn't mean it makes no sense.

I will continue to beat the drum to correct the misinterpretations and misconceptions because they are counterproductive in real time. Fundamentalist Christians use the incorrect interpretations as a justification for contempt for homosexuality. Anti-religious types use the incorrect interpretations as a justification for contempt of Christians. I disapprove of the Bible being used as an excuse to bash anybody.

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Foxfyre wrote:

And, in my opinion, you proclaiming it 'backward' does not make it so, especially when accurate translation in context completely changes the content and intent of those passages.

Here it is yet again.

You invoke translation and context errors.

Show us. See, anyone can imply such errors. You don't point them out because the basis of your arguments are just vague implications that some interpretation is wrong, while not being able to show that it is in any meaningful way.

So again, you allege error but don't know where. Laughing

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I fully appreciate you have not been exposed to that kind of Bible teaching and therefore don't believe it.

No, you can't appreciate this Fox. You know not a whit about what Bible studies I have no been exposed to.

Suffice it to say that they are broad enough to make me laugh when you try to play Bible expert.

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That doesn't mean it makes no sense.

You are right, my studies have nothing to do with why your arguments make no sense.

Anywho, I'm not getting into another long argument with a shadow of an argument. If you have a translation or context error to point out that changes the passages in a meaningful way feel free to bring it to the table.

Otherwise I'll write this off as yet another of your claims that backward passages from the Bible justifying killing homosexuals are being "misinterpreted" in some way, but a way that you haven't quite put your finger on yet. Laughing

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Apparently you have not read any of my arguments on this subject on other threads, or if you did, they may have been beyond your comprehension. We can let it go at that. I'm right. You're wrong. And that's that. Smile

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See, you can't show any contextual errors, and can only pretend they are there and quip in lieu of bringing them.

So feel free to get a last quip in, and I'll find real arguments (not just empty promises that an argument may be discovered someday) to have fun with. :-D

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You're giving me the last word? I'm truly honored. Smile

Seriously I have explained in detail my understanding, based on three decades of theological studies, of the passages you cited. Again, I don't require my students to accept the new interpretations, but, after going through all the evidence out there, so far as I know all do accept the new, more accurate, interpretations. Once they are placed in context within the culture that existed, and compared with other similar kinds of passages, it all makes much more sense.

I am not at all saying that the ancients would have approved of homosexuality. They almost certainly would not. I am reasonably certain that there was no knowledge or understanding of other than heterosexual orientation at all and no mention of one on one homosexual acts--every mention of homosexuality in the Bible has to do with public displays which are described in negative, if not scathing terms. Similarly lewd and lacivious public heterosexual acts receive no better press in the Bible.

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Foxfyre wrote:

You're giving me the last word? I'm truly honored.

Sure. Last words mean little, for me it is only governed by whether I have the time and desire to respond.

This time I have both.

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Seriously I have explained in detail my understanding, based on three decades of theological studies, of the passages you cited.

No, you have not. You simply drop the study and book lines to play expert (when it's plain that you are not anything of the sort).

For example, you claim contextual, translation and interpretation errors constantly.

I'll pick just one:

Show one example of the translation errors you speak of. Show one, just one, translation error that invalidates the homophobic tone of the English translations I have quoted.

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Again, I don't require my students to accept the new interpretations...

Ahh, I forgot this one. Another thing you do in lieu of actually making arguments is drop the teaching thing (in addition to the book and study ones).

I guess it's supposed to sound impressive, even though many study without learning much, publishing a book is easy (heck, a teen member here on A2K has one on Amazon and it'd take me a few days to publish whatever I felt like slapping together), and teachning is often done by ignorant people (my grandma's Bible theology teacher knows precious little about the Bible).

So like I said, pretending that an argument exists isn't as good as actually bringing it.

Where are the contextual errors that make the Bible's backwards texts different? And the translation errors? And is there a certain way you wish to interpret the call to kill homosexuals that justifies it?

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.... but, after going through all the evidence out there, so far as I know all do accept the new, more accurate, interpretations.

What "new, more accurate, interpretations"?

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Once they are placed in context within the culture that existed, and compared with other similar kinds of passages, it all makes much more sense.

Show me how any context makes the call to kill homosexuals make sense. Go for it.

Again, you can claim that there are contextual justifications, but you can't show them.

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I am reasonably certain that there was no knowledge or understanding of other than heterosexual orientation at all and no mention of one on one homosexual acts--every mention of homosexuality in the Bible has to do with public displays which are described in negative, if not scathing terms.

Your certainty is misplaced. It is a simple falsehood that every negative mention of homosexuality is about public acts. It's not even the majority.

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Are there any peaceful muslim nations?

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