Are there any peaceful muslim nations?

Setanta--

We just disagree.

To me, a Christian is an easily definable creature. One who follows Christ, his example and teachings. Though there are people, who display a fondness for OT laws and edicts...'an eye for an eye', and such-- IMV, Jesus exploded those violent mores. I consider those who reach back for pre-Christ excuses to seek their own vengance--to be refuting Christ's teachings and therefore NOT Christians. I wish these people would call themselves something else...

Anyone who is following Christ's example or teachings CANNOT find scriptural excuses or example where He condones violence.

An authentic student of Christ, who wanted to exact vengance for aborted babies, would seek some scriptural leadership in this endeavor from Christ, I would think. I also know they would find none. A good, devout Muslim can be lead to murder with the blessing, example and instruction of Mohammad. This is the problem I seek to address.

Obviously, this is an important point to me. However, I have made it ad naueum, and will not further press the issue.

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Sofia wrote:

............I consider those who reach back for pre-Christ excuses to seek their own vengance--to be refuting Christ's teachings and therefore NOT Christians. I wish these people would call themselves something else.........

I feel the need to add to the context of sofia's post that i wish the disciples of Christ (the man) would divest themselves of the religious trappings of the OT, and concentrate on the reported wisdom of the individual.

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The U.S. statistically excels in murder rates especially involving guns. As an example of crimes in general figures from a study conducted at the Earl Warren Legal Institute of the University of California at Berkeley of burglary and robbery in New York City and London during 1992. London had about 20,000 more such crimes than New York. Seven people were killed during a burglary or robbery in London, however, while 378 people were killed during such crimes in New York. Those are victims, not police officers or perpetrators. It's a complex issue in comparing the U.S. to other industrialized nations as they have found that American crime rates are comparable, or even lower, in most categories of nonviolent crime (burglary, theft, and other property offenses). These statistics do not vary much even when they compared cities of roughly the same size. Zimring and Hawkins present these findings in the 1997 book, "Crime Is Not the Problem: Lethal Violence in America" (Oxford University Press).

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Incidentally, about a third of the killings in America are a result of arguments -- glad we are online only! Laughing

:wink:

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(I don't have a gun so I'd have to pound you to death using my "Smithsonian Air Museum" book or one of my crystal artglass vases).

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I wonder if there are any studies comparing crime statistics (especially violent crime) by perpetrators, comparing fundamentalist religious practitioners to other societal groups?

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Moishe.

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It's Adrian, not Jack.

Sorry about that. I was doing a little Bill Murray thing. I apologize.

No worries. I wasn't upset, just stirring the pot.

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There is a teeny tiny minority of religous Zionists who try and use scripture to justify violence, but they are considered nutballs. They assassintated the Jewish Prime Minister of Israel for Criminy's sake! We are talking about a few thousand people out of perhaps 15 million Jews worldwide.

Wow, and here we are vilifying all of Islam because of a "few thousand" people out of HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of Muslims worldwide. Ironic, no?

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There is no recognized Christian sect today that uses scripture to promote death and mayhem. None. Nada. It doesn't exist.

If you are willing to classify Al qaeda as a "recognized Islamic sect" then I don't see how you can possibly make that statement. The Army of God are a clear example of what you claim "doesn't exist".

paraphrase.

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Every single day there are many Christian religious authorities that use the Bible to explain why Christians should kill the "abortionists" where ever they find them.
This is preached in churches; written in newspapers; broadcast on television; broadcast on the radio; and published on the internet - every single day! Now. Today. 2004. All over the world! (But mainly The USA and Europe) :wink:

And Moishe, using big, bold letters doesn't actually lend your argument any added weight.

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However, today, in 2004, it is a widespread, highly publicized, phenomenon in Islam.

Widespread? I would love to see your "proof" that it is anymore widespread than it is in ANY religion.

Highly publicized? Of course it is! What else have the US media got to talk about when it comes to world politics? This is the "War On Terror" Moishe, nothing else matters right now.

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Sofia wrote:

A good, devout Muslim can be lead to murder with the blessing, example and instruction of Mohammad. This is the problem I seek to address.

This is the problem i have with what you write. What you refer to are passages, mostly from the Haddith, as opposed to the Quran, which authorize the killing of pagans. On such a basis, killing Jews or Christians is not scripturally authorized. On such a basis, murderous fanatics who happen to be muslim have as much holy authority for their murderous actions as do the bible-thumpers who tout the violent and bigoted passages of the Old Testament.

For whatever your intent, this comes off as religious bigotry, because you are in effect saying that you are a believer in a uniquely superior religion. As Asherman has again and again pointed out, the religions descended from semitic monotheism have at their core a jealous, vengeful god. It is not accident that Protestant sects formed in the 16th and 17th centuries hew to an OT line--they can claim their special covenant with god, and they have all sorts of scriptural authorization for a strict patriarchal society. Calvin and Zwingli in Geneva passed laws for the execution of fornicators, aldulterers and homosexuals. They obviously did not refer to the alleged teachings of the rabbi Yeshuaw for that. I don't doubt that you are sincere in your belief in a loving, forgiving god. That is not necessarily the same god that all christians refer to.

Which brings me to my final point, which i have tried to make again and again. That is that the murderous fanatic is an anomoly, and that it is as unjust to condemn Islam as a murderous religion because of the attitudes of the Wahabbis as it would be to condemn Christianity as a murderous religion because of folks like Eric Rudolph or David Koresh.

Day after day, literally hundreds of millions of muslims go peacefully about their daily lives. It doesn't make good copy--it does not get printed in the mainstream press--or, in any press, for that matter.

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Setanta wrote:

Which brings me to my final point, which i have tried to make again and again. That is that the murderous fanatic is an anomoly, and that it is as unjust to condemn Islam as a murderous religion because of the attitudes of the Wahabbis as it would be to condemn Christianity as a murderous religion because of folks like Eric Rudolph or David Koresh.

I do not think it is unjust to criticize either Islam or Christianity so long as they promote texts that can be so easily interpreted by fanatics as doing God's will. The mere fact that millions of adherents overlook the distasteful and violent promoting portions is no reason to discount their influence. I am in favor of keeping the spotlight on.

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Lightwizard wrote:

Incidentally, about a third of the killings in America are a result of arguments -- glad we are online only! :wink:

I shall beat you to death with my balloon daschund that I just made, not because I disagree, just for fun. It's the American way. Smile

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Setanta wrote, "what you refer to are passages, mostly from the Haddith, as opposed to the Quran, which authorize the killing of pagans."

I suppose that might make me feel better ... if I were a Christian or Jew. Somehow it is sorta underwhelming for the rest of us. If it is alright to kill off the pagans, that would I imagine include everyone who might have doubts that the Abrahamic God might not be all his followers crack him up to be. It then follows that followers of sects that disagree with the doctrines followed by one's own, have fallen away from the Truth and into inequity. Apostates are often treated even worse than those of other religions. Ouch, I'm doubly damned ... First, I've rejected the religion of my forefathers back a four or five hundred years, and second, I'm a Buddhist.

Sorry, I just can't whip up much sympathy for the Abrahamic crowd as a group.

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I wasn't trying to induce any sympathy, i was noting that the tenor of murderous hatefulness which Sofia ascribes to the Muslim isn't in fact much different than the bigotry and killing embodied in the old testament.

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Sorry, I just can't whip up much sympathy for the Abrahamic crowd as a group.

You're preaching to the choir, Boss.

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I live in Turkey. This is a wonderful place. We also hate the terorist attacks using the name of ALLAH. Everyones beleif must be in their selves. No need for war or Terorism. Also no need for war for petrolism Smile

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DOA wrote:

I live in Turkey. This is a wonderful place. We also hate the terorist attacks using the name of ALLAH. Everyones beleif must be in their selves. No need for war or Terorism. Also no need for war for petrolism

Hey, DOA, welcome.
Curious idea that - war for oil?
Problem is that "terrorism" is Islamic fascism. No matter how you cut it - we are fighting against Muslims who believe that everything we do is an affront to Allah - including using oil; including democracy; including women's rights.
Is a problem.

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Re Set, a couple of pages back--pagans...

Actually, what I read includes Christians and Jews in the term "pagans". We are also considered unbelievers, in a couple of hadiths, if memory serves....

The most vile hatred is set aside for Jews and their evil friends, the Christians. Pagans.

I'll go find a quote.

Don't worry Ash. We're all set aside for the same indiscriminate murder. Hats off to Mohammad.

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{66} If the People of the Book
(i.e. Christians and Jews) accept the true faith and keep from
evil, We will pardon them their sins and admit them to the
gardens of delight. {71} Unbelievers are those that say:
"Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary." Unbelievers are those
that say: "Allah is one of three." There is one God. If they
do not desist from so saying, those that disbelieve shall be
sternly punished. The Messiah, the son of Mary, was no more
than an apostle: other apostles passed away before him. His
mother was a saintly woman. They both ate earthly food. {82}
You will find the most implacable of men in their enmity to the
faithful are the Jews and the pagans, and that the nearest in
affection to them are those who say : "We are Christians."
{116} Then Allah will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever
say to mankind: "Worship me and my mother as gods beside
Allah?"' "Glory to You," he will answer, 'how could I say that
to which I have no right? If I had ever said so, You would have
surely known it. You know what is in my mind but I cannot tell
what is in Yours. You alone know what is hidden. I spoke to
them of nothing except what You bade me. I said: "Serve Allah,
my Lord and your Lord."
--------
This was tame, and just identified Christians as unbelievers. I'll bring the more violent passages tomorrow...

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Moishe3rd wrote:

DOA wrote:
I live in Turkey. This is a wonderful place. We also hate the terorist attacks using the name of ALLAH. Everyones beleif must be in their selves. No need for war or Terorism. Also no need for war for petrolism

Hey, DOA, welcome.
Curious idea that - war for oil?
Problem is that "terrorism" is Islamic fascism. No matter how you cut it - we are fighting against Muslims who believe that everything we do is an affront to Allah - including using oil; including democracy; including women's rights.
Is a problem.

Oh please. Terrorism is simply the acts of desperate fanatics of every colour, shape, religion, creed and political bias.

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Thank you Cav . . .

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Lash wrote:

This was tame, and just identified Christians as unbelievers. I'll bring the more violent passages tomorrow...

None of the passage you have cited have stated nor implied that either christians or jews are to be murdered. I am curious to know what your source for these passages is--i have a copy of the Quran provided on-line from the University of Michigan in which i have not found these passages. Is your source by chance a web-site from a christian organization? If you cite the chapter, it would make it a lot easier to respond to your contentions, which framed as they are, are difficult to impossible to answer. If your source is a site funded by a christian organization, i consider it suspect unless and until you provide the chapter of the Quran from which verse are taken. Taken out of context, and with no assurance of the fidelity of the translation from the arabic, i have no reason to assume that you are dealing with the truth as opposed to fundatmenalist christian propaganda.

Specific citations, please . . .

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OK-- I have tried to watch my sources on this.

When I return later, I'll bring the quotes with Chapter and verse. I have used several sources while looking in to this...

BBL--

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Are there any peaceful muslim nations?

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