1
   

Why do people equate liking Bush with being American?

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 12:37 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
If you think we are combating terrorism in Iraq at all right now, there is no real point in continuing this conversation. We are CREATING more terrorists.

We should have stuck with hunting down Bin Laden, crushing Al Quaeda, finished the job in Afghanistan. But we didn't. You don't hear anyone on these boards saying we shouldn't go after Al Quaeda.

But Al Quaeda /= Iraq!!!!! When will people realize this. You cannot use terrorism as a justification for anything we do there.

Quote:
Once again, I am saying that I believe a loyal citizen will not make statements or take actions which would tend to weaken one's country's ability to succeed in a war in progress against a dangerous enemy.


Yaknow what? I think I figured out our differences. You see yourself as an American. I see myself as a HUMAN. I love America but that doesn't make us right all the time, and what kind of person is afraid to call out someone they love when they are doing something wrong?
Cycloptichorn

I am not afraid to call out someone I love when he/she is doing something wrong, but I would not do it in a manner that might harm that person, like telling him he's an idiot while he's walking a tightrope.

We went into Iraq because we believed that the odds that it was building or concealing WMD, or that it would resume building them once the spotlight was off, were unacceptably high, and because a dozen years of diplomacy appeared to have failed. One single WMD used within the US could kill as many as a million people, and possibly wound a million more, depending on what kind of WMD it is. The advance of world technology is bringing WMD within the hands of more and smaller nations and groups, there are probably many people who would use them against the US if they had an opportunity, and we can't keep WMD out if they really want to bring them in.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 12:40 pm
You are right that Al Queda /= Iraq. But also keep in mind that Terrorism /= Al Queda. I don't think too many people actually belive much more than a superficial link between Iraq and Al Queda, but we are not in a war vs. al Queda, we are in a war against terrorism, and even then, it's more of a war against violent fanatical Islam.

Now, does Iraq = violent fanatical Islam?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 12:48 pm
To use your analogy, envision how many of us feel:

Dude, you really shouldn't get on that tightrope.

I'm warning you, don't climb that ladder, you're gonna get hurt!

Great. Now you're up on the rope, what are you going to do next?

Please, think about what you are doing!

Oh, I'm unpatriotic for not supporting your ambitions to walk tightropes? Quit being an idiot and come down before you break your neck.

You eventually get to the point where you believe a stern message is neccessary after all your calmer pleas have been ignored over and over.

Quote:
We went into Iraq because we believed that the odds that it was building or concealing WMD, or that it would resume building them once the spotlight was off, were unacceptably high, and because a dozen years of diplomacy appeared to have failed. One single WMD used within the US could kill as many as a million people, and possibly wound a million more, depending on what kind of WMD it is. The advance of world technology is bringing WMD within the hands of more and smaller nations and groups, there are probably many people who would use them against the US if they had an opportunity, and we can't keep them out if they really want to bring them in.


Wrong on the first part, right on the second part. When you say 'we' who do you mean? I never thought there were WMD there. The UN inspectors there didn't think that. The US inspectors didn't think that. Who did think that? Those who needed a reason to go to war. You need more than 'odds' that a country is doing something bad before you commit the lives of Americans to fighting that country. We didn't go to Iraq to combat terrorism, we went to fufill the goals of the PNAC

Ask yourself this: if the advance of technology is bringing about a situation where small groups can build and use WMD, then are we really accomplishing ANYTHING in Iraq? Surely those same groups (none of which could be said to have been in Iraq in the first place) could just pick up in another country.

How about we examine why they are so dead-set on killing us instead of trying to control everything by force?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 12:52 pm
Now, does Iraq = violent fanatical Islam?

Not before the invasion. After the attempt on the first President Bush's life, word was put to the Iraqis that any further actions would result in a decapitation of the Iraqi ruling elite. There were no terror acts committed by any Iraqi individual or organization.

Now, after the invasion, all bets are off.

Joe
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 12:53 pm
Quote:
Now, does Iraq = violent fanatical Islam?


Sometimes. Does America = violent fanatical Chrisitianity? Sometimes. It all depends on your point of view.

I can tell you that violent, fanatical people rarely get scared and give up. Certainly pissing them off more isn't going to help matters. Unless you are willing to do what one of my friends calls the 'glass solution' (by which he means to turn the whole region into one big piece of heat-fused glass) then you cannot really seperate the fanatical violent islaamists from the non-fanatical, non-violent ones. Which means that our approach of using force is doomed from the start.

It's not like there are a certain number of people out there who hate America, and once they are all dead, our problems will be over. We must examine our policies and cultural differences, in concert with the SPECIFIC use of force when called for, in order to solve this problem.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 12:57 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
To use your analogy, envision how many of us feel:

Dude, you really shouldn't get on that tightrope.

I'm warning you, don't climb that ladder, you're gonna get hurt!

Great. Now you're up on the rope, what are you going to do next?

Please, think about what you are doing!

Oh, I'm unpatriotic for not supporting your ambitions to walk tightropes? Quit being an idiot and come down before you break your neck.

You eventually get to the point where you believe a stern message is neccessary after all your calmer pleas have been ignored over and over.

But you don't scream, "Get down off there you freakin idiot," because the person you love might simply fall off.


Cycloptichorn wrote:
Wrong on the first part, right on the second part. When you say 'we' who do you mean? I never thought there were WMD there. The UN inspectors there didn't think that. The US inspectors didn't think that. Who did think that? Those who needed a reason to go to war. You need more than 'odds' that a country is doing something bad before you commit the lives of Americans to fighting that country. We didn't go to Iraq to combat terrorism, we went to fufill the goals of the PNAC

We went in because we believed it highly likely that there were hidden WMD or WMD programs. That's what Bush said; that's why I would have gone in had I been in his position. Yes, we are justified in invading the country of a brutal dictator who has built WMD, used them, and lied about them, and is not much of a loss anyway, based on a high probability of WMD. When dealing with weapons so powerful that one use of one can kill a million people, you can't wait for absolute certainty, because it might come in the form of a mushroom cloud rising over what used to be Washington DC, or an unstoppable plague.


Cycloptichorn wrote:
Ask yourself this: if the advance of technology is bringing about a situation where small groups can build and use WMD, then are we really accomplishing ANYTHING in Iraq? Surely those same groups (none of which could be said to have been in Iraq in the first place) could just pick up in another country....Cycloptichorn

You are absolutely right! Hence our dilemma. This is why Iraq is merely the tip of the iceberg. But when a latter day Hitler appears to be trying to amass a WMD stockpile you simply have to act, because if a WMD is set of within the US, the only thing people will care about anymore is that you might have stopped it and didn't.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 01:04 pm
That's funny. If we really didn't want Iraq to have WMD, maybe we shouldn't have sold all of those chemical weapons to them back in the 80's. Shall I forward you the great picture I have of Rummy shaking hands with Sadaam?

Quote:
But when a latter day Hitler appears to be trying to amass a WMD stockpile you simply have to act, because if a WMD is set of within the US, the only thing people will care about anymore is that you might have stopped it and didn't.


That's my point. He didn't appear to be doing that. There was no real evidence he was doing that. There has been no evidence since that he was doing that. Therefore there was no reason to go to war there.

Bush SAID that he appeared to be doing that, and you seem to believe him despite the evidence, which all points to the contrary.

You didn't respond about the PNAC. Read up on it. You seem to think the motives of those in power right now are justice, peace, and security for all people, when every bit of evidence shows this to not be true... don't be duped, find out the facts for yourself instead of blindly believing what you are told by the media.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 01:24 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
That's funny. If we really didn't want Iraq to have WMD, maybe we shouldn't have sold all of those chemical weapons to them back in the 80's. Shall I forward you the great picture I have of Rummy shaking hands with Sadaam??

That was then; this is now. We need to act very aggressively to stop WMD from being used within the US, or really in any populated place, regardless of where they came from. However, there is evidence that Hussein tried to make his own.


Cycloptichorn wrote:
That's my point. He didn't appear to be doing that. There was no real evidence he was doing that. There has been no evidence since that he was doing that. Therefore there was no reason to go to war there.

Bush SAID that he appeared to be doing that, and you seem to believe him despite the evidence, which all points to the contrary.

Iraq had had WMD, had used them, and had been caught lying about them. The only question was how recently. People who had worked on Iraq's WMD programs had defected to the US and given us descriptions. Many, many people believed that he still had them. The power of these weapons is so great, that even a moderate chance that they have fallen into the hands of a madman who might use them against us must be taken quite seriously. I don't think that there is any parallel in history to the existence of weapons within the reach of even private organizations, of such power that one use of one can strike a crippling blow against a large, powerful country.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
don't be duped, find out the facts for yourself instead of blindly believing what you are told by the media.

I've been predicting since I was about 15 that the present WMD dilemma would be one of the central issues facing mankind during my latter years. I don't let Bush, or you, or anyone else do my thinking for me. I do, however, agree with Bush about many things. Had I been in his position, I would have invaded Iraq well before he did.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 01:36 pm
Quote:
That was then; this is now. We need to act very aggressively to stop WMD from being used within the US, or really in any populated place, regardless of where they came from.


<tears hair out>

The more aggressively we act, the more likely people are to try to use WMD against us.

If WMD can be constructed without large programs (chemical and biological, not so much nuclear tho radiological bombs are quite possible) then there is no way that we can possibly keep tabs on everyone who is doing it.

It's like you imagine the US having it's big boot of democracy stamping down all those who might be a threat to our way of life. This is NOT a sustainable situation. What would be MUCH better is to examine the policies that make people want to use WMD in the first place, and treat the terrorists themselves like criminals - not going to open, classical warfare!

Another point. We don't just suspect, we KNOW, that North Korea has WMD. They have threatened to use them on the US and our allies South Korea. So why did we not take out the KNOWN threat before going after the POTENTIAL one? Because there are more politics behind this than just WMD man, wake up...

Quote:
I don't think that there is any parallel in history to the existence of weapons within the reach of even private organizations, of such power that one use of one can strike a crippling blow against a large, powerful country.


You forget that the biggest holder of WMD in the world is the U.S. For some reason it's okay for us to have them, just not anyone else. I for one do not look back at the track record of the last 50 years or so and see a shining sea of success.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 01:44 pm
I think I recognize the difference in opinion here.

We lived a content life of appeasement and containment in hopes that we wouldn't be attacked. We were. 9/11 stopped our life of appeasement and containment.

You wish to return to that time pre-9/11 where we were content to hope no one attacked us.

I choose to stay post 9/11 where we do something more to assure we are not attacked than hoping.

Also, the continued question's about North Korea are non sequitor. Our foriegn policy does not mean that we treat each country or threat the same. It's rather sophmoric to think we should. We can approach N. Korea in an entirely differnet way that we can Iraq, or Libya, or France or any other country.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 02:20 pm
It isn't sophmoric to say that we should take on the biggest threats first, if what we are truly doing is going after threats.

I have no desire to return to a pre-9/11 world. I just think that the threats can be combated in a very different way than the incredibly stupid, heavy-handed way we are going about it.

To prove that to you, and add something constructive to this thread, let me tell you what we SHOULD be doing. Now, I'm not going to say anything about what we should HAVE done in order to avoid hurting your conservative sensibilities though I could go on all day about that.

Step one: Take some personal responsibility for the fact that our economic and cultural might, along with the decisions we have made as a society over the last few decades, have screwed up the lives of a bunch of people in the Middle East. Are we fully responsible? Of course not! Do we bear SOME of the responsibility? Yes. By thinking about this kind of stuff before we make NEW policies, we can avoid creating more people who are our enemies. This isn't appeasment, it's common sense.

Step two: Stabilize Iraq up, leave as soon as we can. And this means leaving the military bases as well, which I know you don't want to hear. If counter-terrorism is truly our goal, then permanent military bases in Iraq are not really what you would call neccessary. I can see us having a few, but certainly not 17 of them (I'm not solid on that number).

Step three: Restructure our military to combat terrorism. This means a much larger focus on troop training and intelligence, and much less of a focus on conventional weapons such as tanks, planes etc. I think many of us would agree that the biggest failure we have is in our intelligence community.

Step four: Respond with overwhelming force to the terrorist organizations. This means attacking the orgainzation itself, not the damn county it is stationed in!

This would allow a highly mobile response to various threats. These responses can be proactive, without having such a heavy impact on a nation's populace as we are right now in Iraq.

You want to move into a post 9/11 world, but use pre 9/11 military methods to accomplish that. Which is not a reasonable solution anymore.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 03:39 pm
While I agree whole heartedly that the invasion of Iraq was necessary, and in fact, overdue... I believe just as strongly that Cycloptichorn has every right to voice his opinion to the contrary. But here's where he goes astray:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Another point. We don't just suspect, we KNOW, that North Korea has WMD. They have threatened to use them on the US and our allies South Korea. So why did we not take out the KNOWN threat before going after the POTENTIAL one? Because there are more politics behind this than just WMD man, wake up...

Just for starters, North Korea didn't violate 17 straight UN violations, have a history of attacking it's neighbors with CWMD, and in fact legally pulled out of the Non proliferation treaty and are currently under no legal obligation not to proliferate. This isn't so of Iraq.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
It isn't sophmoric to say that we should take on the biggest threats first, if what we are truly doing is going after threats.

Actually, yes, it is. For years the United States has been 90% bark, 10% bite. Do you think Saddam would have taken the same course of action if he knew then, what he knows now, about how serious we are? I think not. He was a bastard that needed to go. Among the side effects of removing him, we have restored the credibility of our threats. If (when?) we get around to steaming ships over to NK, do you think Kim will be more, or less, likely to take them seriously? Everyone on earth knows the awesome power of the American Military Machine. Perhaps now they know we will use it, if we deem necessary. Don't underestimate the value of this message at the bargaining table. Pakistan and Libya certainly got it and we can only hope that Kim did too.

Your plan of only attacking terrorists and not the countries that harbor them is unworkable as well. Once countries understand the ramifications of supporting and harboring them, terrorists will have a hell of a time finding safe havens. While we can't get rid of all terrorists, we most certainly can get rid of all regimes that openly support them. I think we are well on the way to doing just that. Again... think Libya. Idea
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 03:59 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
The more aggressively we act, the more likely people are to try to use WMD against us.

If WMD can be constructed without large programs (chemical and biological, not so much nuclear tho radiological bombs are quite possible) then there is no way that we can possibly keep tabs on everyone who is doing it.

It's like you imagine the US having it's big boot of democracy stamping down all those who might be a threat to our way of life. This is NOT a sustainable situation. What would be MUCH better is to examine the policies that make people want to use WMD in the first place, and treat the terrorists themselves like criminals - not going to open, classical warfare!

I am saying that we should:
1. Keep tabs on whoever is building WMD. Too bad if it's hard. It's the problem we've been given.
2. If the entity building the WMD is very, very, very bad - like Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, bin Laden, or on that level, we simply have to stop them. First we try diplomacy, and negotiation, and incentives, etc., etc., but if none of that works, we use force. After we do this it will be one less entity to keep tabs on.
3. We can examine the policies that make people want to use WMD. But in some cases people are just evil, and that's why they do it. What are we supposed to do about that, other than oppose them? We certainly should not let other countries or terrorists demand that we abandon policies that we think are right, as the price for them promising not to use their WMD on us. Ultimately, we do need to have an arrangement with all the civilized nations to prevent WMD from falling into the hands of hideous dictators or terrorists.


Cycloptichorn wrote:
Another point. We don't just suspect, we KNOW, that North Korea has WMD. They have threatened to use them on the US and our allies South Korea. So why did we not take out the KNOWN threat before going after the POTENTIAL one?

You really ought to be able to figure this one out for yourself. NK already has nuclear weapons. The minute we attack them, they could kill a million people. They've made themselves invulnerable militarily, which is why we had to invade Iraq before Hussein, too, achieved this kind of destructive capacity.


Cycloptichorn wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
I don't think that there is any parallel in history to the existence of weapons within the reach of even private organizations, of such power that one use of one can strike a crippling blow against a large, powerful country.

You forget that the biggest holder of WMD in the world is the U.S. For some reason it's okay for us to have them, just not anyone else. I for one do not look back at the track record of the last 50 years or so and see a shining sea of success.

1. Nothing you said contradicts my statement in any way. This is the first time in history that even an entity as small as a private organization would have a pretty decent chance to wipe out a million citizens with one single use of one single weapon.
2. I am not saying that nobody can have them, I am saying that evil, madmen can't have them. I'm not that happy with even the large, stable, responsible nations possessing them, but people like Hussein definitely must not.
3. Your comment about a shining sea of success is irrelevant. I am saying that if manifestly evil, ruthless dictators begin to acquire WMD, somewhere down the road, one of them is going to do something unimaginably awful, or send agents to do it.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 05:19 pm
Libya promised to end it's WMD programs 2 years ago. The best analysts out there say it was a shambles anyways.


Quote:
1. Keep tabs on whoever is building WMD. Too bad if it's hard. It's the problem we've been given.
2. If the entity building the WMD is very, very, very bad - like Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, bin Laden, or on that level, we simply have to stop them. First we try diplomacy, and negotiation, and incentives, etc., etc., but if none of that works, we use force. After we do this it will be one less entity to keep tabs on.
3. We can examine the policies that make people want to use WMD. But in some cases people are just evil, and that's why they do it. What are we supposed to do about that, other than oppose them? We certainly should not let other countries or terrorists demand that we abandon policies that we think are right, as the price for them promising not to use their WMD on us. Ultimately, we do need to have an arrangement with all the civilized nations to prevent WMD from falling into the hands of hideous dictators or terrorists.


I completely agree with everything written here. I just think we need to make sure, due to the nature of WMD, that when we are eliminating one enemy, we are not creating another one in the process. It's also rough to label people 'evil'; It's not that I don't agree with you, but evil is in many ways a point of view. I'm sure many Arabs will swear to you that Bush is evil, and while I don't agree with his policies I don't think he's evil.

Question for you: if they truly believe that Bush is evil, yet they have no other way of striking America other than non-conventional weapons, are they justified? (Not to us, but from their viewpoint, would they be?)

It's not about abandoning things that we think are right in order to avoid having pre-existing terrorists use their weapons on us. That's a silly idea. Instead, we should examine our policies to see what we can do to improve the lives of the people over there.

Why? For one thing, it's a good thing to help people. Second, we may be able to KEEP new terrorists from arising by fixing the economic equities of the region, or at least seeming to do so. We don't have to give very much at all, we just need to recognize that their problems are valid. There's nothing like marginalizing someone to fill them up with anger, which is what we don't want given the circumstances.

We HAVE an arrangment to deal with WMD and terrorism. It's called the UN. Now, you can argue that the UN is a flawed system, but it would be better for us to fix that system than to abandon it completely.

My comments about America's WMD were actually poorly worded, upon review Sad Hate it when that happens. I guess what I was getting that is this:

We chide other countries for developing WMD. There are a certain amount of countries that already have them, and there's nothigg we can do about it. Other countries are in the process of acquiring them, and we threaten them with sanctions and such. Some countries are not allowed to build WMD, because they seem agressive and we won't let them.

At the same time, we probably have the largest stockpiles of chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons in the world. We lose credibitlity internationally by condemning other countries for doing the same things that we do. This situation doesn't seem at all strange to us - after all, we are a force of good in the world, right?

Other countries don't see it that way, though. Differences in viewpoint might not seem like something worth arguing over, but by understanding the enemy, you can conquer him much easier (or even get him to defect). In this case, I think the U.S. should take a hard look in the mirror before stating that other countries are not allowed to make WMD. Not becuase I disagree with this position, but because other countries will.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Radikal
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 06:06 pm
WMDs
Debating the invasion of Iraq will go nowhere. The postions are fixed in people's minds and no one will change their mind set.

WMDs are a huge problem!

The greatest threat to the USA regarding WMDs is Pakistan.

The second greatest threat is from the from Soviet Union.

The third is from Iran. Iran does have a secret alliance with Israel. Will Iran have a nuke before long?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2004 07:55 am
"Iran does have a secret alliance with Israel"

You are kidding, right?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2004 11:09 am
Radikal

That link between Iran and Israel does sound highly improbable.

A link between Chalabi and Mossad would be an easier portion to swallow.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 05/06/2024 at 01:21:44