Soccer wars

well, 1990 was already pretty messed up. Slovenia and Croatia were planning to gain independence, Serbia was threataning with war in that case, so it can be said that it was in a way national protest. Although there were Croats in team, just not from Dinamo that was at the moment best croatian team - tying first place in national championship few rounds to go, with Red Star. Also, it was one event that caused it as well - few weeks before, Dinamo-Red Star game was cancelled after crowd riots. Part of problem was that police forces at that time were mainly Serbian, even in Croatia and other republics. So, when Red Star hooligans started riot on South stands on stadium, police was kinda too calm. When Dinamo hooligans fought back, police started to fight with them and one of policeman hit one Dinamo player on the field during riots (home players were on the field trying to persuade supporters to get back on the stands), and when this policeman hit one Dinamo player, Dinamo's captain, world famous Zvonimir Boban jumped on policeman and hit him, actually knock him down.
So, Boban was suspended by Yugoslav FA for a year...Davor Suker (later best scorer of World Cup) was at the moment best scorer of national championship but also wasn't called in national squad. So, that IS part of story.

But, fact is that it was not so much of national putdown. It was in a way, but on different level. National coach at the time was Bosnian Croat - and he was very very much leaned towards bosnian players (no matter if Croats, Serbs or Muslims, just that they play in Bosnia) - again probably not in nationalistic matter, he just prefered that style. But fact was that Croatia and Serbia had much better teams at the moment (Yugoslavia was at that moment world champion in U21 category, and most of the players were Croats, and on the other hand, Red Star Belgrade was excellent at the time, next year they became european club champions).

Few days later, Yugoslavia played another friendly against Spain - this time in Ljubljana, Slovenia. Slovenes are calm nation, so there were no riots, but it was about 2,000 spectators or even less, without any support. Funny enough, Yugoslavia never played better then in Italy'90, they lost in quarter-finals with Argentina in penalty shootout.

At season 1990/91 it was even worse. National championship was filled with riots. And all groups went crazy. Partizan supporters raped (!) one of Hajduk supporters in Belgrade...few weeks later all croatian hooligans joined slovenian hooligans in Ljubljana when Olimpija-Partizan game was held...on every game in Croatia yugoslavian federal flag was burned, In Sarajevo, Bosnia member of hooligan group called "Horde Zla" (Forces of Evil) that supported FK "Sarajevo" killed supporter of other team with knife before the game (strange, but I can't remember which team Sarajevo was playing) - it was just like in Argentina.

Season 1991/92 started without croatian and slovenian teams. Bosnian teams started championship but withdraw in second part.
And that was end.

Now they are killing each other - biggest fights are between Partizan and Red Star fans, since Red Star is still strong nationalistic group, even with some nazi elements, while Partizan is team that always had Albanians, Muslims, Croats, etc..in their squads. Partizan supporters are also nationalistic when their team plays against Croats or Bosnians, by the way.
In Croatia biggest fights are between Torcida (Hajduk Split) and Bad Blue Boys (Dinamo Zagreb). It's regional thing mostly - Hajduk is from Adriatic part - region Dalmatia, while Dinamo is from capital. Something like Barcelona-Real let's say.
In Bosnia, surprisingly, but not that much if we have in mind that someone already said that you hate the most team in your neighbourhood - biggest rivalry and biggest fights are between supporters of two Sarajevo teams - Sarajevo and Zeljeznicar. Although last two years they have joint league, so teams from Croat-Muslim federation and serbian Republika Srpska are playing in same division - still, everything is pretty okay except on Sarajevo-Zeljeznicar games.

I also understand part about all Netherlands supporting Denmark against Germany. I support everyone against Serbia as well (although it's more political matter, because I support some serbian individual players). Well, against almost everyone. On last World basketball championship many Croats were awake in 3 in the morning, supporting Serbs loudly against USA
But it also differs in what part you are living. My town was always very mixed, and lot of Serbs live here. So, people see more clearly some things. We were under frequent serbian attacks for four years, so many people will say that they hate Serbia, everybody extremelly hates Serbs that left town and joined serbian forces, but nobody looks that way on Serbs that stayed in town - many of them fought for our town, they are just friends. So, people also don't hate Serbs except those that left. When NATO attacked Serbia group of teenagers attacked one albanian bakery in town chanting "Serbia, Serbia". I told you, you can't really understand Balkans We can hate Serbs, it's our thing, but WTF Americans have to do with it?? Leave our Serbs alone

"Schwule Holländer" is one of the rude German anti-Dutch "war chants".

I would never say such (but nimh is a klerebeer and klootzak for the "<grins>"! :wink: ).

looking from the other side - do your national teams have traditional friends? Like, other national teams they like more then other teams...for example, Croatian fans are always (except when playing with Croatia of course) supporting Ireland and Scotland, and majority supports Bosnia and Slovenia as well (although Slovenia-Croatia matches are always pretty rough). On WC98 Croatian fans (but those were mainly real fans, loud, but not hooligans) had great time with Jamaicans, but is there a normal person that wouldn't have great time with Jamaicans?

Interesting stuff.

Baseball:
Perhaps baseball has something. In Mexico City, there were two teams, the Tigers and the Red Devils, every series they played was called "the civil war". Yet nothing at all happened at the stadium. Devils followers sat from home to first base and right field; Tigers followers, from home to third base and left field. No fights ever erupted. In fact if a big group of friends went to the game, some of them "tigristas" and some of them "diablistas", they would seat in the side of the majority.
Now the Tigers have left the city and I feel so lonely
I've seen on TV that in the US cops enter and easily expell fans from the stadium. A fan grabs a catchable ball (and I'm not talking about the Cubs in the American Championship Series) a cop comes to get him, and he walks out like a sheep. This is unthinkable elsewhere, unless there is a riot going on.


Barras bravas:
I see, from MyOwnUsername's posts that the fame of Argentina's barras bravas has crossed the Atlantic. They have replaced the English Hooligans. The terrible thing about them is that most of them are financed by the teams themselves. Idiotic.
Mexico is still a place in which you can go watch a "classic" game with small children. The hated América Club organized it's "barra brava", but had to dismantle it after the riots against Brazil's Sao Caetano in the Libertadores Cup.

Partizan:
It may sound odd, but Partizan was a very popular team in Mexico, during the late 60s early 70s. The Yugoslavs came to play an "hexagonal" (usually, clubs from South America and Socialist European countries were invited to play against Mexicans), and they had a charismatic player, Hazanagic Mustafah. Once he missed a goal, jumped to the upper goal post and started to do push ups, until the wooden pole broke.
When I went to Belgrade in 1974, the Yugoslav friends (some Serbs, a few Croats, one Macedonian) asked us who were the popular Yugoslavs in Mexico. The answer was easy: Number 1 Hazanagic; Number 2 Milutinovic Bora. Ah, yes, and some people knew there was a Josip Broz, "Tito".


The Germans:

Germany plays everywhere the role of the sporting powerhouse. So, more often than not, the rest of the world wants to see the Teutonic Machine bite the dust (Croatia 3, Germany 0; in France, por example).
I remember seeing the final World Cup game of 1974 in a shabby hotel in Athens. Everyone, but the German tourists, was rooting for the Clockwork Orange. And I mean everyone, from the Greek clerks, to the Gambian students to the Swedish couple.
I root for Germany only if it faces a greater "evil": the US in most Olympic sports, Cuba in boxing, England in football... and, yes, I must admit, I like them to win when one of their players is on my Fantasy League team (Ballack game me some points in 2002 ... I may prefer the underdogs, but I don't mind winning )

well then Mexicans at least share it fairly - one Croat (Tito), one Serb (Milutinovic) and one Muslim (Hasanagic) - Slovene and Macedonian would do good as well, but that's enough also

You have the point with Germans. Some nations are "enemies" in sport and that doesn't have to do anything with real life. For example I never heard anyone in Croatia saying that he hates Italians, but everybody hates them on sports field - they always cry and whine and it sucks Funny thing is that we always beat them in all possible sports. They never have beaten us in soccer, they never have beaten us in basketball, never or almost never in waterpolo - usually they end up in front of us in that sports, but we beat them always when we play each other.

I was always against Soviets when we talk about sports. I really hated all Soviet Union teams. Today I sometimes support Russia....

Traditional friends?

Mexico has a history of non-reciprocal love in Latin America.
Mexicans love Brazil. Brazilians don't care.
Mexicans love Costa Rica. "Ticos" see us as "The Colossus of the North" and love to see us loose.
Venezuelans love Mexicans. We don't care.
Argentinians wonder why don't we love them enough. They expected a wholehearted support in the 1986 final against Germany. They found a tepid audience.
We want the gringos to lose, unless they're playing baseball against Cuba... or soccer against Germany or England.
We generally prefer Latin Americans over Europeans. Blaack Africans are popular in soccer, too. Asians and Islamic countries, not so.
Of course, since we want England to lose in football, we sympathize with Scotland, Ireland and Wales.
We also like Spain and some "smaller" European countries.

Brazilians kinda like Mexico fbaezer, some people call them "primos".

They seem to think it's one of the more comparable cultures to them and because there is little regional conflict many Brazilians cheer for Mexico.

Well, post-Fortuyn, the Dutch hooligans would probably pick up on that as a "geuzennaam"! :wink:



"klerebeer"??? <grins>
"klootzak" is quite 'heavy', btw - you dont wanna be saying that to anyone when you're in holland if you dont want to get in trouble!

it's understandable, fbaezer, that Mexicans prefer Latin Americans over Europeans. Strange is that Croats prefer Latin Americans over Europeans When it comes to soccer at least. And Croats are not the only one.
I never heard anyone when we talk about World Cup mentioning "Gee, I hope Italia will win", or "I am totally for Germany", or stuff like that - most support Brazil, there is devoted group of Argentinian fans, and some, including me, support as you call them "Black Africans". But, it's good "name" actually, cause I support Cameroon and Nigeria, but not Tunisia or Morroco.

And Asians. Uh, I "hate" them when it's about soccer. I don't hate anyone in real life, and Asians are cool as far as I'm concerned. But in soccer. I would ban them No Asians on World Cup. Period. Okay, okay, I'm exagerrating, but I really never support them.
Arabs? Well, they are okay. They are so poor in soccer generally that I sometimes support them. How can you not support poor Saudis after 0-8 with Germany?

Funny thing - I just came home from final game of night street soccer tournament in a street close to me. Funny thing is that Zvonimir Boban played in exhibition game (and Robert Prosinecki, those who watch soccer closely will know and those that don't know who Boban is and they are on this topic can kill themselves immidiately ). Weird thing is that this tournament is almost like street basketball tournaments in dangerous parts of american cities Bad street lights, small wooden stands for some 800 people...bottles of beer everywhere...everybody drinking it of course...games played on concrete, tonight very wet concrete as well...
One friend said "Imagine that - guy played on San Siro three years ago and now he is playing here"

I was talking today with my kids about our likes and dislikes for the Portugal Eurocup. May tell you something:

Older son: cheers for Croatia and Spain; wants England to lose badly.
Middle son: cheers for Czech Republic, Spain and Portugal; wants England and Germany to lose badly.
Young daughter: cheers for France, to small to want anybody to lose badly.
Myself: cheer for Italy (I know they are overhyped sore losers, but I lived there for several years), and perhaps Denmark or Latvia (depending on how they play), would love to see the English bite the dust, but doubt it.


Craven, we don't want Brazilians to "kinda like" us. We know they do. We want them to have
for our teams and athletes the unrequitted love we have for theirs.

Not really, apart from that Denmark game, nothing passionate that is ... well, everyone likes Brazil of course, their soccer is art. Plus theyve got cool shirts :wink:

We do tend to look kindly - well, tenderly that is, in this rather patronising way - onto the Belgian team. Unless, of course, they win against us, as happened last night.

(I must admit I hadnt been paying attention - no TV, you know - just that when I went to the Internet cafe to print something out, ten o'clock on a Saturday nite, the streets were deserted - even the traffic lights had been turned off! It was only when I arrived that I saw we were in our 92nd minute against Belgium ...).

For the Belgians, however, winning against us is the single most gratifying experience in soccer - we are their Germans, you know.

But yeah, anyway - that you Balkanese support each other despite all the water under the bridge, we know - just look at this year's Eurovision Song Festival, gggrrrrr!

Same here, same here <smiles>. See the above about Brazilians. The Africans are even better, because they also play such pretty soccer - plus, they dont stand a chance (or didn't, anyway), so they're "safe" to support :wink:



Well, thats always nice to hear

I was only 3 then, but the trauma of "1974" cannot be underestimated. I was just reading an interview today with a woman who works for the Goethe Institute here. She recounted how when she first came here she'd still naively, when talk was of soccer, mention some player from that game or something. And how even otherwise highly reasonable, articulate friends would at best freeze into this icy silence, fury burrowing their frows, asking her - without a hint of irony - to never bring up the issue again.

Never made up, either. Whenever the Dutch play Germany and they're winning, the Dutch supporters sing (in 'German', to annoy 'em): "Deutschland, Deutschland, Alles ist vorbei, alles ist vorbei". On the other hand, when the Dutch didnt get through to the final rounds the other time, a song called "We're going to the World Cup (Without the Dutch)" was a big pop hit in Germany, I believe.

Well, what's not to love about a Selecão Brasileira? ;-)

We also love to play the Belgians.
Their press always minimizes us, only to cry later.
The one time we didn't beat them, we played with one less man, and overcame a 0-2 to a 2-2 tie.
(Now that I think about it, in the very same tournament we did the very same thing with the powerful Dutch team )
But then came the Germans, aaaaach!

<smiling at fbaezer's list of "traditional friends">

I've noticed, travelling around Europe, that many on the continent look at the Dutch like we look at the Brazilians - as the guys who play such pretty soccer, the guys who should have won ... goes with this sympathetic/patronising "sucks thats not how life works, eh" gesture :wink:

Cute "night street soccer tournament" story btw, MOU. Cool.

Interesting thing about "street soccer" is that its becoming a big thing in teen culture here now.

I mean, on the one hand the whole "just going outside to kick a ball" thing from when I was a kid just increasingly doesnt exist anymore - streets are too crowded, kids are not being left out alone anymore, random 'open' plots of grass in the city are all being built full ("city in-pansion", they call it). (White) kids have their gameboys. On the other hand, "official" soccer is ever less personal or spontaneous - all the money involved, all the foreign players, the boring, overstrategised games. So twas a question of time before the counter-reaction came. Its mostly fueled by the young black and Moroccan kids, who just want to stunt with the ball, you know? **** the trainer, the more tricks you can, the longer you can keep the ball, the better! So theres this whole scene of streetsoccer tournaments now, and some of the pro players come join in, "undercover", regularly as well. Cool.

nimh,

In Brazil there is also great respect for the Dutch team. More than for any other foreign country.

Ah, once again a lot to keep up with (at least in case that this phrase means what I think it does hehe)....

Nimh - Eurosong sucks. Well, first of all I hate most of the songs from Eurosong, and second, this televoting is really retarded thing. To be honest, one of maybe three (out of 36) songs this year I consider good was Dutch song - and nobody voted for it except Belgians
And as of Balkans...ah, it's impossible to explane those relations. And it's even more impossible to understand them. I mean, Slovenia-Croatia relations are probably something like Netherlands-Belgium relations and it's kinda normal - same thing goes in all world. But, Croatia-Serbia...well, I don't know what to say


Fbaezer - well, my greetings to your older son. However, you can give him my advise - unless he is old enough to feel and sympathize for losers, he should better find some other favourites on this EC
Actually, I don't know...several times european sports media referred to our teams as "those crazy Croats" - I am quite pesimistic, but you really never know with us. We should beat Switzerland by all means, but it's quite doubtfull with us. But, IF, and that's big IF we beat them, then I am almost sure that we will go through - bye, bye England. Problem is that we will probably lose from Switzerland, then we will win against England, or something like that - just that it's not normal.

nimh - in Croatia lately very popular are cage-soccer tournaments, you know, like in that NIKE commercial. But, "street-soccer" or I should say "futsal" tournaments were always popular. Indoor tournaments during winter (in sports halls) have higher attendance then national championship, and during summer open-air tournaments are equally popular.

Myownusername, believe me, my son is old enough. At 23, I think he's almost as old as you.

He has this weakness for Croatia since he was 6, we lived in Italy, and vacationed at Losinj.