Archbishop enters communion debate

I don't think it's right if Republicans OR democrats do it. I think it's a serious problem in our society.

If your church didn't do that, great. I'm sure most of them don't. I'm sure most churches didn't try to control people's politics back in the days of our Consitituion. But the founders considered the seperation to be so important, they made it one of our basic rules. It must be guarded against, religion is simply much too powerful a tool for the control of the weak minded. You must consider the possiblity for abuses.

Cycloptichorn

Sorry, wasn't trying to lay blame CR. Agree that I do normally do that and was close here. I was really being simple and saying I was just presenting the facts and not trying to make a squeeze play on either party.

I have problems with the labor union issues also. BTW, when the radical elements of the right were the radical elements of the left back before the move in the 50's, 60's and 70's - the church was for the Dems that would change that faction to Rep!

Jimmy Breslin
Church should pay for its politics

May 4, 2004

Beautiful. I think the best thing to come out of the big Catholics in New York, the Powerhouse, St. Patrick's Cathedral, in many years is the shucking of this cloak that tries to cover their right-wing politics. It never really did. Now they campaign openly as right-wingers in the national election.

Absolutely marvelous! They can just step right out and hang a campaign banner from the front of St. Patrick's Cathedral:

Vote Bush! He Stops Abortions!

The big Catholic clergymen are right-wing Republicans. I always felt sorry that they had to keep hiding this. No more. This year they have finally come out for all to see what they are.

They don't want this Kerry. He is a liberal Democrat. Kerry votes in favor of women having the right to choose on abortion. Ask anybody at the top of the church. This man is for murdering babies. He and his liberals are against the war in Iraq, and for women in the church, money for education in poor schools. Catholic bishops are for staying in there in Iraq. No matter how many funerals we have to run in poor neighborhoods. And for how many years, they were for capital punishment. They have a passionate denial of women in any role, no matter what the wreckage caused by old, white-haired males who leap onto altar boys.

The cathedral now is an official political clubhouse for the right. The cathedral and the residence take up the square block, Fifth Avenue between 50th and 51st Streets, and down both streets to Madison Avenue and the cardinal's residence.

In a fair society, the property would have a real-estate tax of $10 million a year. It is unique for a large religion to lose a tax-free status. But at the same time, the Catholic church here seems so obsessed with playing an open role in Republican Party politics that I guess they are willing to pay $10 million a year for the right.

The only years that really count are the national election years. But they must pay the tax in off years. So that means they would actually be paying $40 million each four years for the right to back a Republican presidential candidate. I admire them for it.

I pass St. Patrick's and the place brings tears to my eyes. They are not hypocrites. They truly mean what they say. They don't want the Democratic nominee for president to be part of their business. I don't agree with them on one issue politically. But, by God, if they are going to lose their real-estate tax exemption and put out $40 million to support George Bush, then I give them a slight bow. Beautiful!

If the Catholics are going to do something, then let's do it big. They already have started open political campaigning by saying that John Kerry probably won't be invited to the cardinal's famous Alfred E. Smith memorial dinner in the fall. I'm all for that. At last, Catholics are letting everybody know exactly the real Catholic positions on an election.

The bishops don't want liberals under the same roof. Already, a Cardinal has called for Kerry to be denied the right to receive communion at a Catholic Mass. This is centered in Massachusetts and has nothing to do with New York realty taxes.

The Smith dinner is named for former New York Gov. Alfred E. Smith, whose laws after the Triangle Shirtwaist fire still protect workers. Every four years the dinner becomes a national story, with the presidential candidates attending and everybody watching how the cardinal acts toward them.

The most famous appearance was in October in 1960 when Cardinal Spellman rooted so hard for Richard Nixon alongside him, and forget this Kennedy; he says he's a Catholic but he's not mine. Kennedy got up and put Spellman in shock and stole the room: "Cardinal Spellman is the only man so widely respected in American politics that he could bring together, amicably, at the same banquet table, for the first time in this campaign, two political leaders who are increasingly apprehensive about the November election, who have long eyed each other suspiciously, and who have disagreed so strongly, both publicly and privately, Vice President Nixon and Governor Rockefeller."

His charm carried the room and went out of it to the nation. Nobody on either side can do that this year. But we do have principles. We don't want John Kerry at the dinner because he supports abortions and our big Catholics seem ready to put up $40 million to say it. Absolutely marvelous!

Heh. Don't take it personally, man, but there is a long and established history between religion and the control of the masses.

I didn't say faith.
I didn't say spirituality.
I didn't say belief in Christ (or whoever you happen to believe in)

I said religion. Religion is like the bueracracy that glues our communities to those three things. The ties that bind it together can bind people from free thought and expression as well.

Does that mean that all religious people are weak minded? Of course not! Does that mean that the nature of religion can control those who are weak minded? Yes. The most extreme examples of this are cults, and I guess suicide terrorists are the most extreme of all.

It's worth keeping an eye on.

Cycloptichorn

Survey: Bishops Shouldn't Pressure Voters

ASSOCIATED PRESS

NEW YORK (AP) - About 71 percent of American voters believe U.S. Roman Catholic bishops should not publicly pressure Catholic politicians on abortion, according to a survey released Thursday.

And 85 percent said their view of Democrat John Kerry was unchanged by bishops' recent criticism of the Catholic presidential candidate for his support for abortion rights, according to the Quinnipiac University poll.

When broken down by Catholic voters, 66 percent said the bishops should not publicly pressure Catholic lawmakers and 87 percent said the bishops' comments would not influence their vote in November.

Several bishops have sparked a national debate over religion and politics by saying that Kerry should not receive Communion.

Archbishop Raymond Burke of St. Louis has taken the firmest stand on the issue, saying he would not give the sacrament to the candidate.

Other bishops have said Kerry should not attempt to take Communion, but would not be denied the sacrament if he did. And some prelates have said Communion should not be used as a public sanction.

A committee of American bishops is developing guidelines on how the church should respond to Catholic politicians whose public positions are at odds with the faith's teaching.

The poll of 1,160 registered voters was conducted May 18-24 and has a margin of error of plus or minus 2.9 percent. The margin of error for the subgroup of Catholic respondents was plus or minus 5.6 percentage points.

Fifty-five percent of all the respondents said abortion should be legal in most or all cases.

It is no different than labor unions who try to influence their members to vote a certain way. Or any other group for that matter.