Rumsfeld's new war;US officer corps turns against government

BBB,

This post cured my constipation.
Leave it to the Brits to score a direct hit. It looks like they are not infected by the (I hate to use this term) Right Wing media infiltration. The quote from The Army Times was a bit surprising, they usually don not openly criticize the Brass especially the President.
The bit that sent me to the latrine was Powell's essay. Last year Selo Black Crow stated that November 4, 2004 through November 20, 2012 would be the period during which the World would be in chaos. He predicted that only 144,000 humans would survive.
I am not quaking in my boots, yet. I still believe that we can end the power and greed motivated madness. We as American Citizens need to unite now, not just to elect a sane rational government, but to elect a government that abides by the spirit of our Constitution. No more strings attached to Foreign Aid, TRUE EQUALITY for all people, not the privileged few. The list could take several pages. We must, we need to take back our country, now or we will lose it forever.


See you in Heaven

Sam

BBB,

All of this Iraqi war thing smacks of "Wagging the Dog". As this is a definite ruse by the government to divert attention from failings in American policy, both foreign and domestic. It was planned to rally the US citizenry behind Bush's attack on a percieved threat to the "American way of life." , Unfortunately, this is real life, not a politically, satirical movie like "Wag the Dog." This time, the war is real, with people of many nations involved.

War doesn't just involve the Military,their immediate family and friends. It doesn't just impact on their communities, on a personal or economic level. It involves the innocent people of the country the fighting takes place in, the children, women and elderly.

I know. I've seen it first hand. My year in Vietnam was the bloodiest in that war's history. I was there from Oct, 67 to Oct, 68. I was all over the country, from the Mekong Delta to A Shau Valley, only 15 miles from Cai Son. I was on the South China Sea to the cambodian and Laotian borders. During Tet of 1968, I was at Bien Hoa, Ton Sahn Nhute AFB during the massive shelling. I rode a tank through the city of Saigon to the Chinese district of Cholon. I helped secure Highway One to Hue'. I helped secure firebase Bastogne and went into A Shau Valley, "The Valley Of Death" as we called it.

Throughout this time, I saw the most inconceivable horrors ever, short of atomic warfare. Children, women and elderly scrambling at dumps, trying to find something to eat, since their homes, farms and men were conscripted either by the NVA or the South Vietnamese government. Many had untreated health problems, some were wounds from schrappnel or gunfire. It's hard for me to write about this, but it must be told. I saw people shot down, because they were in a "Search and Destroy Zone" although they carried no weapons. I saw water buffalo killed while pulling a plow, taking the family's means of fertilizing their rice paddies, plowing them and protecting the family. (Similar to destroying an American farmer's tractor, his manure source and his watch dog, all in one.) Why? For the joy of killing and wanting fresh steak!

I even saw an area of the jungle that was sprayed with Agent Orange. The landscape was eerie, something only seen in movies. Everything was grey, the leafless trees, the ground vegetatation, grass, everything! There was absolutely no sound, except that of the soft breeze rustling the fallen leaves and our own footsteps. Everything was death! The stench and sights of dead animals filled our eyes and noses. Dead birds, monkeys, lizards, even insects, nothing alive but us. Everything had died because of that defoliant. Monkeys that ate the leaves or fruit in the trees died, as did the birds. insects that fed on the dead animals...all dead. Everything! And then the US Army told us, "You can drink the water from that river. It won't hurt you. These are animals, not humans." Having no other source of water, we had to. Now, the Vietnamese have to try to live with this legacy of that war.

You might ask why I enlisted. I couldn't find work for over one and an half months after dropping out of college. I was 1-A, prime cannon fodder. I wasn't wanting to leave the US, nor do jail time for resisting, so I enlisted. As it turned out, I was able to help save lives, by doing my job as a Pathfinder and an OJT medic. My old Battalion Commander told me this right before New years this year.

The reason I mentioned all of this, is simple. The power hungry, greedy beast that started the war over there is now working it's way throughout the world. What does it feed on? Ignorance, apathy by a materialistic society, predjudice and the ever consuming need to have more money than people can imagine. It never gets enough. It doesn't think about the devastation it reeks, only on trying to sate it's hunger formore, ever more.

In Vietnam, we had what were called "No Fire Zones. These were areas that we were not to fire our weapons in, no matter what. One example is a rubber tree planation, usually owned or selling latex to Uniroyal. Shouls a US soldier happen to fire in on eof these plantations and hit a tree, the owner could remove the bullet, have it tested ballisticly to determine who's weapon fired that round. That individual would be fined $300 USD for each round found to have come from his weapon. At that time, a PFC only recieved about $150 per month!

Of course rubber wasn't the only reason for our being there. The French sold the off-shore oil rights to the US after Diem Bien Phu. Ike, in turn, sold them to ESSO, now EXXON. Even back then, lives meant nothing, neither those doing the actual fighting or civilians.

Now, Bush and cohorts seem bent on doing the same thing. They've tried to do this to gain more and more. The plan to used National Guard and Reserve units has forced the US to back him, after all these troops are neighbors and family. Nasty trick, but fairly effective. However, most people support the troops, but not the President.

Now the military leaders have done some serious thinking. They are looking at their oath and that of every person serving or that having served in the US military. It states in part, "To defend the Constitution of the United States from all enemies, both foreign and domestic." Hmmmmmmmm.

Sam and I also find the dates interesting. There's a Lakota Prophesy about that. She's posted on it, so I won't.

Sorry about the length and typos, but I need to get on to other topics. Hope everyone can at least get the gist of things. I strongly urge everyone to see the movie, "Wag The Dog". A lot of laughs, but also pertanent to this topic and thread.

Do you guys enjoy the freedom that the US provides for you?

I don't, particularly.

All yuks aside, it's a patently fallacious rhetorical question, McG. The implication is...either America citizens agree with this administration's policies, or they are anti-freedom. Clearly a silly suggestion.

That wasn't the point of my question, Blatham.

We are in the process of giving to others what we take for granted. The US offers it's citizens unprecedented freedoms. Now, we are allowing other countries to also enjoy some freedom. Their are many people in the world that do not want freedom nor do they want their neighbor to have freedom. These are the dogs that we are putting down.

You misread my question.

McG

Sorry. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the freedoms of the US are well precedented here, in England, Australia, Denmark, New Zealand, Belgium, Spain, France, the south polar icecap etc etc.

I don't mean that to be too facetious, though I couldn't resist a bit of it, because what I think made America both unique and desireable for immigrations was 1) its remarkable constitution and 2) its lack of history - thus its lack of established social strata and institutions, and the availabiltity of land, all of which made it a place folks really could 'start again'.

But as to the present day, America is not unique in terms of freedoms.

As to the assumption that the US went into Iraq to promote 'freedom', that's an open question. It certainly hasn't gone into Myanmar or the Sudan to promote freedom.

But it is the reason that we have gone into Vietnam, Korea, Grenada, Panama, Europe, Haiti, Kuwait, Iraq, etc...

We also have exerted extensive pressure on countries like Libya, Iran, Syria, Russia, China, Liberia, Egypt, etc... to become more free.

America has a history of freedom. While it may be a short history in comparison, it is colorful and majestic. It has been a role model for many and a curse to others but I will take the freedom America offers over any other. I also would like to see all other countries in the world to also experience the same freedoms I do. If that can be done economically, militarily, socially, or by whatever means neccessary than that's great.

McG

Yes. America is in favor of free peoples. And it has been a role model for others. I understand that your preference is for american-style freedoms, but folks from Australia or Canada or Denmark would feel the same about their own homes...that's natural. To make some more objective claim is problematic.

But it is the case that the American record is a mixed one, as you know. Sometimes, and not infrequently, commerce or military strategy has trumped ideals of freedom and democracy. That is the truth which underlies no small amount of disdain for American claims to goodness.

That said, I acknowledge that the sort of radical Islamist campaign against the US is probably our greatest polical danger. But it has come about not simply out of the blue. America is not innocent.

The only reason I keep pushing that notion is because if we get the causes wrong (and the neocons certainly have got it wrong) then we aren't going to get the solutions right (and they haven't got it right, as events demonstrate).

I would certainly acknowledge that the US does not hold a monolpoly on freedom. In saying that the US is free in no way implicates that other countries are not free as well, but the US seems to have the largest bullseye drawn upon it's back.

The governments of Canada, Australia or Denmark also do not seem to (my opinion) have the same vested interest in applying it's freedoms to the world as the US seems to.

That is neither a bad thing nor a good thing, it is just a thing and I mean no disrespect to any Canadians, Austalians or Danes.

McG

No disrespect was taken (but you could pee on our flag and it wouldn't bother me a tad). I'm bigger on the human community than my national community.

It seems to me pretty evident that there is a functional relationship between commerce and 'freedom spreading' in US foreign affairs. Commerce arrives first, and other considerations follow. Where commerce isn't operational, not much attention falls into those areas.

That's not absolute, but it seems to be the dynamic.

I agree with you on this. Capitalism and commerce are what made the US what it is and is what will help bolster the US in the coming years.

We definitly have a vested interest in our trade partners, but we also have concerns in making everyone a trade partner. A healthy world economy is vital to America and it is in it's best interest to keep the world economy stable.

But, I am not one for economics and I do not want to get into an economic debate as it is over my head.

Oh come on McG, stop shoveling the BS.

"Vietnam, Korea, Grenada, Panama, Europe, Haiti, Kuwait, Iraq, etc... " to give these people freedom.

Noriega was set up by the US, he was transporting drugs on behalf of CIA, he just fell afoul of the US and was removed. In Grenada the leggitimate government showed signs of getting close to cuba and the US invaded, In kuwait, the US ambassador told saddam that the US didnt get involve in arab-arab conflicts and then after iraq invaded "freed" kuwati oil, not the people, they still live under the un-elected king. As far as applying your freedoms to the rest of the world why not liberate burma, north korea, s. arabia, pakistan and a host of other countries with oppressive (mostly military) dictatorships.

Also if economics is over your head, why bring it up. The US pattern of trade is very akin to what it was under british colonialism. Buy resources from abroad, turn them into products and sell it back, in the meanwhile get all the value added. The only reason that the US economy is still existant is 1)the overdependence of foreign economies on the US dollar (the terms dollarisation and seignorage are the technical explenations) and the derivative markets set up in the US. The derivative markets are a very interesting concept. It is akin to buying and selling the hope that something will go up or down in value. They have no real economic base in the sense that stock markets do. Also the US bomd market is heavily financed by foreign economies because the US is a relatively stable economy.

Hows this for a mind excirsize.
First you destablize the rest of the world, they end up investing their money in you, then you take their money and using it destablize them even further.......

yilmaz101,

You have an excellent grasp of the situation

Sam

Bullseye, Yilmaz101!! Right on target.