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80% in Iraq Distrust U.S. Occupation Authority

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2004 04:19 pm
infowarrior wrote:
blatham:

Chief among the "sneaky trick" that have many people worried is the DieBold electronic voting machines scheduled to be in 80% of voting places by November.

Because they produce no paper trail, there is no way to audit their results, meaning in a large, Democratic-leaning city like mine (Seattle) can with the DieBold machines, produce a result showing Bush taking 58% of the vote.

Of course, this would never happen, but this is the sneaky sort of crap the GOP relies on nowadays to win elections. The fact the owner of DieBold is a Bush supporter just adds more worry to an already worrisome situation.


HUH?! I am speechless at the absurdity of this whole post.

Wow. Just wow.
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2004 06:11 pm
?
Only 23 Democrats voted against Bushco's rush to war on Iraq. The rest are still on board with "stay the course".
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2004 06:15 pm
"Stay the course" means more of our military getting killed, our military killing more innocent Iraqis, and spending over 4 billion dollars every month of our tax money - for what?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2004 06:36 pm
Deecups36 wrote:
hi blatham- Why are you concerned with fishin'? I'm not and neither should you be.


deecups

fishin is a smart and careful guy. It's a very odd occasion where he protests some claim or opinion I'm forwarding that I don't have to sit back and review my claim in the light of his view.
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infowarrior
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2004 10:30 pm
"fishin is a smart and careful guy." blatham

Really? I hadn't noticed.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2004 12:02 am
infowarrior wrote:
"fishin is a smart and careful guy." blatham

Really? I hadn't noticed.


info

Indeed he is. We disagree about a number of things, but never about how careful we ought to be in our statements or reasoning. I couldn't count the number of times he's caught me out on saying something which I really didn't have evidence for. He's a good guy.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2004 12:25 am
I'm going to post this one on several forum on A2K.
***********
Harsh judgement, sure, but do they have a point?




"Are we sure that the extreme Christian fundamentalists who lurk behind President Bush, with their hair-raising attitudes to gays and abortionists, are a lesser threat than the extreme Muslim fundamentalists who lurk behind several Middle Eastern regimes?"

Flaws in the American way of life

What the New Statesman and several of its commentators such as John Pilger and Ziauddin Sardar have said for the past two years is now being accepted across the political spectrum. The Independent's ex-editor Andreas Whittam Smith compares George W Bush and Tony Blair to Stalin - a comparison at which even the most dedicated anti-Americans would have baulked until now.

In the London Evening Standard, the political commentator Peter Oborne calls the US "a rogue state". The editor of Newsweek International,
Fareed Zakaria, acknowledges that, to much of the world, the US is "an international outlaw". The proposition that America had the slightest
interest in the welfare of the Iraqi people, and that a humanitarian mission could piggyback on its invasion, now looks wholly absurd.
Attacked by Arabs on 9/11, it wanted to take the battle to Arab territory (that they were different Arabs was neither here nor there); alarmed by China's growing demand for oil, it wanted to strengthen its position in the oil-rich Middle East; dedicated to aggressive capitalism, it wanted to
impose its ideology on the only region still largely resisting it.

As always, US leaders try to present America's crimes as an aberration. What happened at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad, we are told, does not
represent "American values". Yet, the only exceptional thing is that Americans did the torturing themselves. More often, over the past two
years, the US has used secret planes to move prisoners to allied regimes that have more skill and experience in torture. Again, the deaths of
hundreds in Fallujah must be another aberration - or perhaps they didn't die at all or perhaps they were all armed terrorists.

Why we expect so much of America is a puzzle. During the Korean war, it bombed the north so intensively that it ran out of targets. In the 1960s
and 1970s, it killed an estimated three million people in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. At the end of the first Gulf war, it killed retreating Iraqi
conscripts in their tens of thousands. In Chile and Nicaragua, it helped armed opponents of democratically elected governments. It has tried to
squeeze the life out of Cuba for decades and took new measures to stop Cuban Americans sending cash to their families back home only the other
day. It opposes a host of international treaties - on banning nuclear tests and controlling carbon-dioxide emissions, for example - and now abjures
the Geneva Conventions as well.

How a country conducts its internal affairs is a good guide to how it will behave abroad. It may treat foreigners worse than it treats its own people, but it will not treat them better. This is why tyrants' professions of peaceful intentions should never be trusted. What misleads us about the US is its commitment to many liberal values: free speech, a free press, a robust legal system and lots of voting, for example. But this is also a country that incarcerates two million (about one in every 140) of its residents - the world's highest rate of imprisonment. One in three black men spends some part of his life behind bars. Prison regimes are sometimes harsh and abuse is frequent. The US also executes more than 50 people a year, some of them children.

The American way of life has many other shameful features: the subordination of politics to business interests; the uncontrolled possession of guns; huge social and racial inequalities; the pitiful provision of health and welfare for poor people. We tolerate these as an ally's flaw, rather as we might tolerate a few drunken binges in an otherwise amiable friend. We do not see how they add up to a vision of the world that America wishes to export - a way of life that seems comfortable enough for middle-class opinion-formers, but that brings misery to millions of others. We share, we think, "western values" and must unite against a common enemy. But are we sure that we and the Americans share the same understanding of western values? Are we sure that the extreme Christian fundamentalists who lurk behind President Bush, with their hair-raising attitudes to gays and abortionists, are a lesser threat than the
extreme Muslim fundamentalists who lurk behind several Middle Eastern regimes?

Scoff if you like, and observe that the US does not behead people in cold blood. But who knows where its unshakeable belief in its own righteousness may lead it? Wiser rulers than Britain's would hedge their bets rather more, lest they find themselves obliged to defend worse things than beatings and sexual humiliation in a Baghdad prison. America, some say, is in a "pre-fascist" era. That now looks just a little less implausible than it did a month ago.

-- The New Statesman, 17 May 2004
http://www.newstatesman.com/site.php3?newTemplate=NSArticle_People&newDisplayURN=200405170001

When the Franco fascists attacked their own government and the people of Spain in the 1930s, passionate people from across the globe joined in
the fight to save the country from fascism. Can we expect a similar call, one day and possibly soon, to fight to save America from itself?

********
My comment: This was sent to me by a friend in Australia, and it pretty much summarizes what I've been contending for many months. The idea that Bush and his bush-wackers are trying to bring democracy to Iraq is outrageously stupid for people to accept as "our cause." It's good to know I'm not alone in being able to see how rediculous the justifications for this war in Iraq.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2004 12:28 am
Abuse reported in Afghanistan.
*******
Top Stories - Reuters


U.S. Military Hit by Another Afghan Abuse Charge

Sat May 15, 4:35 PM ET Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo!


By Mike Collett-White

KABUL (Reuters) - The U.S. military in Afghanistan (news - web sites) has launched its second investigation into prisoner abuse in a week, as the scandal over the treatment of Iraqi detainees threatens to spread.


U.S. spokesman Lieutenant-Colonel Tucker Mansager told reporters on Saturday that fresh allegations of mistreatment were relayed to the military on Thursday, days after a former detainee said he had been sexually abused in 2003.


"Upon notification, coalition forces launched an immediate investigation into this matter," he said. "Coalition forces are committed to ensuring that all detainees are treated humanely and consistent with international law."


He added that such allegations threatened the military's interests in Afghanistan.


"Our investigation is proof that we are concerned about these things," Mansager said. "Our center of gravity is the Afghan people. When allegations like this come to light, that can affect that center of gravity and we take that very seriously."


In a tiny, remote village in the east of the country, the family and friends of one of three Afghans who have died while in U.S. custody expressed anger at American abuses.


"We ask the Americans: 'Why are you arresting and killing innocent people?' We don't know how he was killed," said Ibrahim, best friend of Dilawar who died in December, 2002, at Bagram air base, the main U.S. detention center north of Kabul.


Eighteen months later, the U.S. military has yet to conclude its investigation into the death, which according to reports was caused by "blunt force injuries" to the legs. Ibrahim said Dilawar, 22, was accused of being an al Qaeda supporter, but his brothers told Reuters in Yaqubi, 87 miles southeast of Kabul, that he was a taxi driver.


"We don't want the Americans in our country. They should leave it for us," Ibrahim added.


FEW DETAILS


There were few details of the latest complaint, except that it was made to the military via a third party and the person involved was held by Americans last year and later released.


Earlier this week, the Americans launched an investigation into allegations made by former policeman Sayed Nabi Siddiqui that he had been subjected to beating, sleep deprivation, taunts and sexual abuse during about 40 days in U.S. custody last year.


The complaints, following prisoner abuse in Iraq (news - web sites) that sparked rage across the Arab world, have led to new calls for human rights groups to be given access to Afghan detention centers.


But Mansager said that only the International Committee of the Red Cross would be allowed access to Bagram.


"There will be no change in that policy, as we view the ICRC as the sole international organization charged with looking after the rights of persons under control."


Some of the most serious allegations by detainees in Afghanistan, made since the U.S. waged a war that toppled the Taliban in 2001, concern Asadabad in the east, Kandahar in the south and Gardez, south of Kabul.


An ICRC spokeswoman in Kabul said the group visited Bagram about once every two weeks but did not go to other centers. She did not comment on an informal request by the ICRC to visit one of the other sites, which Mansager said had been made on Friday.





Human Rights Watch has complained of prisoner abuse in Afghanistan before, and this week called the problem "systemic."

Hundreds of Islamic militant suspects are in detention centers around the country. Some are sent on to Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, where many are kept incommunicado for months.

The U.S. military leads a force of around 20,000 soldiers in Afghanistan hunting down militants from the al Qaeda network and the ousted Taliban regime.

(Additional reporting by Samar Zwak in YAQUBI)
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