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Why do people care about absolute certainty?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 03:27 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

I've been watching this thread for signs of somebody realizing the pragmatists' point that the seeking of "absolute certainty" is just as problematic as the searching for "God". Both are absolutist concepts. What we call "knowledge" amounts to an expression of our confidence in a belief which serves a particular purpose, and purposes can range from the psychological to the scientific. Pragmaticists have no trouble sleeping !


I don't think ANYONE is losing sleep over the fact that the entire of what we perceive to be the universe, existence, or REALITY...may be an illusion, Fresco.

That has been my point with, Bloc, right along.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 03:37 pm
@Frank Apisa,
No. You don't get it Frank. The scenario of an "illusionary world" assumes that there is an objective state of "absolute certainty" or as you would term it "the true nature of reality" against which all "knowledge" can ultimately be assessed. It is a pseudo-religious red herring, because the "vision" of such assessment is a God's eye view.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 04:17 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

No. You don't get it Frank.


Yeah, I do get it, Fresco. I get that I do not know what the REALITY is. You seem to be having some trouble getting it...and are trying to deflect by pretending that "know" and "REALITY" are the problem.

The problem, Fresco, is with you.


Quote:
The scenario of an "illusionary world" assumes that there is an objective state of "absolute certainty" or as you would term it "the true nature of reality" against which all "knowledge" can ultimately be assessed.


Actually, Fresco, your babbling here should start with, "The scenario of the possibility that all of what we call the universe, existence, and REALITY may be illisionary..." rather than the convenient way you started it. Of course, you realize that a straw man argument is easier to defeat than one actually proposed...so I can understand you choosing to go with the former rather than the latter.

Shame on you, Fresco. You should be above newbie tactics.



Quote:

It is a pseudo-religious red herring, because the "vision" of such assessment is a God's eye view.


If you say so. But then...I wonder why someone like you would invent it??? Wink
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 04:37 pm
@fresco,
Very good. Anyone not taking comfort in this clarification is deeply troubled.
There is very little difference between the pursuit of absolute "truths" in positivist philosophy, fundamentalist religion or scientism.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 05:30 pm
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Very good. Anyone not taking comfort in this clarification is deeply troubled.


Well I do not "take comfort" in this blind guess of Fresco's about the nature of existence...and I am NOT deeply troubled.

Quote:

There is very little difference between the pursuit of absolute "truths" in positivist philosophy, fundamentalist religion or scientism.



C'mon. Your take on things relies on the same things. You are gratuitously defining "truths" in a way that leads to where you want things to be.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2014 12:17 am
@JLNobody,
That particular "Frank" (which is evoked/triggered by threads on "belief") is blind to the significance of the fundamentally temporary nature of "self" and "its world". In fact that "Frank" defines itself by such blindness by usage of phrases like "what he knows". All he, or anybody else might call "certain" amounts to a confidence in a belief in "what works" for various personal and joint human enterprises, irrespective of the views of absolutists who assume we can say it is anything more than that. Even the phrase "set in stone" implies an ignorance (i.e an ignoring) of the ephemeral geological events in which what we call "stone"was formed ...ephemeral that is. relative to cosmological time scales as measured for some current human purposes, and which potentially relegate states of "human knowledge" to ludicrous levels of insignificance.

As usual we can now expect that Frank to thrash about with objections aimed at its concepts of "fresco" or "JLN" as though they were permanent consistent "selves". They are equally evoked by the context of this thread .

Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2014 12:26 am
Quote:
Thread title: Do people really lose sleep at night thinking they might be a brain inside a vat of some evil mad scientist's laboratory?

Haha something like that happened to Spock in one episode when aliens removed his brain to use as a processor in their computer..Smile
The dialog went something like this-
SPOCK- "I'm not sure where I am captain"
KIRK- "You're a disembodied brain inside a computer"
SPOCK- "Fascinating!"
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2014 03:19 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

That particular "Frank" (which is evoked/triggered by threads on "belief") is blind to the significance of the fundamentally temporary nature of "self" and "its world".


Obviously you meant "Frank is not willing to buy into my belief system about REALITY."

Going to the Frick today...will try a more thorough response to this nonsense later today or tomorrow.




Quote:
In fact that "Frank" defines itself by such blindness by usage of phrases like "what he knows". All he, or anybody else might call "certain" amounts to a confidence in a belief in "what works" for various personal and joint human enterprises, irrespective of the views of absolutists who assume we can say it is anything more than that. Even the phrase "set in stone" implies an ignorance (i.e an ignoring) of the ephemeral geological events in which what we call "stone"was formed ...ephemeral that is. relative to cosmological time scales as measured for some current human purposes, and which potentially relegate states of "human knowledge" to ludicrous levels of insignificance.

As usual we can now expect that Frank to thrash about with objections aimed at its concepts of "fresco" or "JLN" as though they were permanent consistent "selves". They are equally evoked by the context of this thread .




Your blind guesses about REALITY are showing, Fresco.

http://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/humour-blague/clown-jonglerie/clown.gif

0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2014 03:36 am
Quote:
Certainty requires courage. Absolute certainty requires silliness.

Agreed.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2014 04:32 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Certainty requires courage. Absolute certainty requires silliness.

Agreed.


The way he was using it..."certainty" requires being willing to lie.

Perhaps you agree with that also, Olivier?

And there is no difference between "certainty" and "absolute certainty" to anyone with the ability to think.



Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2014 06:48 am
Perhaps this "reality" of our life on earth frightens some people, so they wrap themselves in a comfort blanket to take the sting out of it by saying "it may not exist"..
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2014 07:00 am
@Frank Apisa,
I wonder what ability to think you have, and whether you are absolutely certain to have it...
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2014 07:13 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

I wonder what ability to think you have, and whether you are absolutely certain to have it...


If everything is not illusionary, Olivier, I have plenty of ability to think. Enough so that I do not question your ability to think.

Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2014 07:20 am
I like Heston's attitude when he and his mates splashed down on Planet of the Apes, and the spaceship sank, he didn't freak out, he just accepted their new reality and took it right on the chin and said cool as a cucumber-
"Okay, we're here to stay!"

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/planetapesherestay_zpsc8792c58.gif~original
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2014 07:24 am
@Frank Apisa,
But you did question my ability to think, in as much as I agreed with a distinction between certainty and absolute certainty...

I suspect the distingo is somewhat similar to what you call your "qualifier". Or the difference between what you call "daily life reality" and "absolute reality".
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2014 07:32 am
There have been truckloads of fascinating scifi films and TV series over the years, many of which explore the theme of "reality".
For example in one episode of Star Trek, Crusher notices that individual crew members keep vanishing, but when she reports it, the remaining crew don't know what she's talking about-
CRUSHER- "Maybe we should put Mr. Worf and security onto it!"
PICARD- "Er...excuse me Beverly, but who is Mr. Worf?"
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2014 07:55 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

But you did question my ability to think, in as much as I agreed with a distinction between certainty and absolute certainty...


I DIDN'T QUESTION your ability to think, Olivier. I questioned the conclusion to which you arrived.

Quote:


I suspect the distingo is somewhat similar to what you call your "qualifier". Or the difference between what you call "daily life reality" and "absolute reality".


I suspect you don't suspect that at all, Olivier. I think you are just spewing words right now...trying to re-ignite a fire of some sort.

I wish you the best of luck with that, because I always have so much fun when we have a fire burning in our discussions.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2014 08:32 am
@Frank Apisa,
Sorry but I don't have time to provide you with your weekly spanking. Ask someone else.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2014 08:34 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Sorry but I don't have time to provide you with your weekly spanking. Ask someone else.


Still into declaring victories that don't exist, I see.

What a delight you are.

http://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/humour-blague/clown-jonglerie/clown.gif
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2014 09:58 am
Regarding the distinction made between "certainty" and "absolute certainty", is this meant to distinguish between "faith" or even a conclusion based on induction from empirical evidence or the kind of confidence based on deduction from first principles?
 

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