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Was Elliot Rodger's recent attack an attack on women?

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 04:51 pm
@maxdancona,
It sure is. You take me right away as agreeing with your link. Of course I haven't even read it. I probably won't. I'm in my seventies. I don't need lessons on who I am.

I am a female who was premed before the civil rights movement. One of 3 in a class of about 250.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 08:00 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The principal guest was a woman named Soraya Chemaly ...She went as far as to tie "Men's rights groups" in with this murder (tying men who feel they should be given a chance to get custody of their children in with rapists and child molesters).

I don't know who she is, but I can understand why she mentioned "men's rights groups" in the discussion about Elliot Rodger and misogyny.

The fact is Elliot Rodger did visit "men's rights groups" on the Web--that part of the internet also known as the "manosphere'. He was active on PUHate sites. He found confirmation for his misogynist views on those sites. Those sites apparently aren't as innocuous as you think they are.
Quote:
The Toxic Appeal of the Men’s Rights Movement
James S. Fell
May 29, 2014

A growing movement driven by misogyny and resentment is pulling in frustrated men struggling with changing definitions of masculinity. A men's fitness columnist on why they should walk away.

Imagine a kid who got a cone with three scoops of ice cream in it. Good flavors, too. Like peanut-butter chocolate, plus a scoop of cookie dough. In a waffle cone. And then this child whines about the lack of chocolate sprinkles on top.

Welcome to the men’s rights movement.

Wait, what? Men’s rights? That’s a thing? Yes, it’s a thing, and while there are certain legitimate aspects to men’s rights activism, or MRA, it’s overwhelmingly a toxic slew of misogyny. This world of resentment and hate speech has been brought to light in recent days as we learned about the vitriolic forum posts and videos left behind by Elliot Rodger, the 22 year-old accused of killing six people in Santa Barbara last week. But it’s hard to comprehend from Roger’s delusional rants how potent the movement’s message can be for ordinary men.

MRAs believe the traditionally oppressed groups have somehow seized control and taken away their white male privilege. They tap into fear and insecurity and turn it into blame and rage. Often the leaders of these groups are men who feel as though they got screwed in a divorce. They quote all sorts of statistics about child custody and unfair alimony payments, because in their minds, the single mother who has to choose between feeding the kids or paying the rent is a myth. They believe passionately in their own victimhood and their creed goes something like this: Women are trying to keep us down, usurp all our power, taking away what it means to be a man.

One popular MRA site is AVoiceForMen.com, with a mission to “expose misandry on all levels in our culture” and “denounce the institution of marriage as unsafe and unsuitable for modern men” as well as “promote an end to chivalry in any form or fashion” and “educate men and boys about the threats they face in feminist governance.” They also want an “end to rape hysteria” and promote “civil disobedience.” In their defense, AVFM does support nonviolence, but with all the inflammatory rhetoric, do readers always take heed?

There are Reddit threads and other Internet forums dedicated to men’s rights, and the language and vitriol towards women and especially towards feminism is appalling. Any messages of nonviolence seem lost in the hate mongering. These groups spew logically faulty statistics about the prevalence of male rape and spousal abuse, and how there really is no glass ceiling or pay inequality, and general complaints about how “that bitch got my promotion because she has a uterus.”

Men’s Rights Canada made headlines again recently with their classless response to an anti-sexual assault campaign called “Don’t be that guy.” Posters went up across the nation implying women aren’t punished enough for infanticide, stating, “Women can stop baby dumping. “Don’t be that girl.” This was a follow up of the same campaign from last year alleging many women made false rape accusations because they felt guilty over a one-night stand.

As a white man who writes about fitness, I’m very aware of the pressures on men and the many ways that these kinds of hateful messages reach my audience, both overt like the Canada ads and the less blatant claims of male victimhood in mainstream media. It’s clear that the definition of masculinity is in flux, and for some men that’s frustrating, especially with near-pornographic ad campaigns promoting women as objects of sexual conquest. And while there are aspects of MRA that are worth bringing to light, as a movement it can suck a good man down a rabbit hole of resentment. It is backward-looking and pining for good old days that never were.

Are there some problems with specific instances of unequal treatment? Yes. Is there some anti-male sentiment out there? Yeah, that happens too. But turning these issues into a movement is laughable. It is a like a multi-millionaire who whines that a tax loophole was closed and he’s losing 0.5% of his annual income.

Men, especially white men, aren’t marginalized, we aren’t under attack, and we not in danger of losing the overwhelming privileges society bestows upon us for having pale skin and a penis. However, MRAs have been described as whining children by the women they call “feminist bitches.”

So to any man who feels like he’s getting caught up in such a movement because they feel emasculated or are just having trouble relating to women and perhaps sympathizing with Elliot Rodger, I will tell you this: Life isn’t fair. Life is NOT fair.

Women will judge you. Some will judge you based on your appearance, your height, your width, you genitalia, your wealth, your car, your clothes, your acne. In other words, they will judge you the exact same way you judge them.
http://time.com/134152/the-toxic-appeal-of-the-mens-rights-movement/
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 08:31 pm
@firefly,
Thank you for posting that article Firefly. It makes my point exactly. This is the key quote (in my opinion)...

Quote:

So to any man who feels like he’s getting caught up in such a movement because they feel emasculated or are just having trouble relating to women and perhaps sympathizing with Elliot Rodger, I will tell you this: Life isn’t fair. Life is NOT fair.


Do you see what the writer did there (the emphasis is mine)?

Come on! Being upset with the result of divorce, or being upset about ad campaigns demonize men is not equal to "sympathizing" with a mass murderer. That part about "sympathizing with Elliot Rodger" exists only in the crass imagination of this feminist writer. This is nothing less than a baseless hit piece.

This is another of many examples where feminist voices cross the line of indecency.


firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 08:50 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
That part about "sympathizing with Elliot Rodger" exists only in the crass imagination of this feminist writer. This is nothing less than a baseless hit piece.

This is another of many examples where feminist voices cross the line of indecency.

Feminist writer? Feminist voices?

The author of that article is a man who is a syndicated fitness columnist.
Quote:
Fell is a syndicated fitness columnist for the Chicago Tribune and Los Angeles Times. He blogs at http://www.SixPackAbs.com. You can follow him @bodyforwife


Where is any justification for calling him a "feminist"? How did he cross any "line of indecency"?

Meanwhile, you are ignoring the blatant misogyny that's being spewed out of many of those alleged "men's rights sites". Many other male writers, beside James Fell, have been pointing it out for the past week. The Southern Poverty Law Center has been pointing it out for years, and has deemed it "hate speech". And their complaints about those sites haven't been "baseless".
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 09:00 pm
@firefly,
You don't think that suggesting, with out any basis in reality, that the target of thia hit piece "sympathizes" with a mass murderer crosses the line of indecency?

And, for the record, many men call themselves "feminists".
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 09:16 pm
@firefly,
A challenge for you Firefly.

The writer of this hit piece singles out a website; AVoiceForMen.com that seems awfully moderate. I have not heard of this website before tonight, but my quick reading failed to see where there is anything even remotely similar to "hate speech".

So I challenge you, take a look at the website and tell me what you find that rises to the level of offense that this writer alleges.

This seems like overreaction (if not slander).
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 09:20 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You don't think that suggesting, with out any basis in reality, that the target of thia hit piece "sympathizes" with a mass murderer crosses the line of indecency

No, because Elliot Rodger did, in fact, find other men sympathizing with him on those sites when he visited them, and other men who shared his hostile views of women.

I also think you are misinterpreting what Fell meant--I think he's saying don't be tempted to sympathize with Rodger's feeling that his not being able to get a date with a tall beautiful blonde girl was literally an end of the world catastrophe, and it's no excuse for misogyny, let alone violence.
Quote:

And, for the record, many men call themselves "feminists".

True, but James Fell didn't. And he's definitely not a "feminist writer". Why did you pin a "feminist" label on him?
NSFW (view)
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 09:39 pm
@firefly,
Let me just put it this way.

My desire is to live in a society that is a fair and decent place for everyone. I want us to stand against violence against women, and I want pay equality for women and I would be happy to see a woman in the the White House (although it bothers me it will probably be another Clinton) .

I also would like to be considered an equally fit parent in custody issues and be treated fairly in divorce matters.

That being said the feminist narrative often bothers me. Once I start feeling you are attacking me for my gender, or for my ideas on gender, you lose my support. Again I will point out that as far as civil rights issues go I have never felt attacked for being White the way I feel attacked for being mail.

I reject much of what I consider the feminist narrative that I find excessive and unrealistic; particularly in areas of sexual prudishness and consensual relationships and their inability to support fathers as parents.

I find the idea that peaceful and rational opposition to their viewpoint has anything to do with this particular crazy mass murder is incredibly offensive.

maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 09:42 pm
@firefly,
I see what you are doing. Of course you can find clearly hateful misogynistic sites... so what.

Lumping every site that has ideas supporting men under one label makes it very easy to ignore what any of them have to say.

This is intellectually dishonest. This is the same tactic ColdJoint uses against Muslims and liberals. If you want to attack a specific group, then you should do it on the basis of what they actually stand for rather than relying on your label for them.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 10:01 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:

I reject much of what I consider the feminist narrative that I find excessive and unrealistic; particularly in areas of sexual prudishness and consensual relationships and their inability to support fathers as parents.

I find the idea that peaceful and rational opposition to their viewpoint has anything to do with this particular crazy mass murder is incredibly offensive..

I really ignore "the feminist narrative". You're paying more attention to it than I do. I decide issues for myself, on the basis of my own values.

I consider misogyny a form of bigotry, just like racism. And I've found it "offensive" that any woman who opens her mouth to decry such bigotry, gets automatically put down as a "feminist"--whether or not she considers herself one--and that the assumption is that only "feminists" would oppose this type of bigotry. You rather irrationally just described a male fitness columnist as being "a feminist writer."

Anyone who wants to see bigotry and prejudice eliminated should oppose misogyny in any of it's various manifestations, from the most virulent to the most subtle, just as racism should be opposed as unacceptable. Misogyny should not be marginalized as a "feminist issue"--it's a form of bias that affects everyone, and not in a good way. And you're obviously not interested in either recognizing or acknowledging that.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2014 10:19 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Anyone who wants to see bigotry and prejudice eliminated should oppose misogyny in any of it's various manifestations, from the most virulent to the most subtle, just as racism should be opposed as unacceptable. Misogyny should not be marginalized as a "feminist issue"--it's a form of bias that affects everyone, and not in a good way. And you're obviously not interested in either recognizing or acknowledging that.


First of all, you have a point about me putting the "feminist" label on this writer since he doesn't seem to call himself "feminist". I withdraw my use of this label for this man.

You are wrong. I am absolutely interested in acknowledging that misogyny is not a "feminist issue". I have no when people discuss misogyny with me the way people discuss race with me, the problem is when attacking misogyny means denigrating men.

My chief complaint is the use of this tragic event where one clearly troubled man commits mass murder to promote a political view and attack a wide range of people who have nothing to do with even a suggestion of violence.

I am strongly opposed misogyny as I understand it. Of course there is a wide range of opinion of what constitutes misogyny. I suppose that is the problem.

0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  3  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 06:26 am
Firefly, dont know how you find the time or energy, but I really appreciate your contributions on this subject.
0 Replies
 
Buttermilk
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 07:45 am
@firefly,
Because these are the same attitudes I encounter on my college campus where freshmen take one course in women's studies then all of a sudden they become a radical feminist after one semester. Because radical ideas are what's being taught.

When I heard that men could never objectify themselves in a women's studies course I completely lost respect for contemporary feminism. But aside all that in addressing the latter portions of your post, misogyny IS harmful but so is misandry.

All I'm saying is Rodger's behavior is the result of a psychopathology which went unchecked. As far as him venturing to websites that foster his ideas, well look, I used to be a member on blackplanet.com where almost every discussion was about white people, I come here and I see why a black persons anger towards white people can be somewhat justified with that being said that doesn't make me want to take my Smith and Wesson and go killing white folks.

Rodgers had no regard for nobodies life not even his own so what I'm saying is this tragedy is beyond misogyny. I disagree with the women in that video. 4 young men died I tend to not overlook that fact.
Buttermilk
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 08:07 am
BTW Catherine Mackinnon and Andrea Dworkin although intelligent, their on pornography are horrible.
0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2014 05:51 pm
@Buttermilk,
Quote:
4 young men died I tend to not overlook that fact.
Are we still talking about Elliot Rodgers here?

Because women died too............................................

Quote:
All I'm saying is Rodger's behavior is the result of a psychopathology which went unchecked. As far as him venturing to websites that foster his ideas, well look, I used to be a member on blackplanet.com where almost every discussion was about white people, I come here and I see why a black persons anger towards white people can be somewhat justified with that being said that doesn't make me want to take my Smith and Wesson and go killing white folks.


Most angry people in life that have a problem with women/men/black/white/ would not pull a Smith and Wesson either but deep down inside they wish that they could.
eurocelticyankee
 
  2  
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2014 06:05 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
If you haven't already read it, might I recommend reading:
http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1348325395l/10800064.jpg

Not saying I agree with everything he says, far from it, but I think he's done his homework and has definitely hit on something important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtTmzv34pz8

firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2014 06:11 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:

Most angry people in life that have a problem with women/men/black/white/ would not pull a Smith and Wesson either but deep down inside they wish that they could.

But some of them shoot their mouths off in threads on this site, referring to female A2K members in the most offensive ways and terms they can think of. And they throw in racism and ageism to boot.
http://able2know.org/topic/248556-4

Then they deny misogyny exists. Laughing And, any mention of misogyny is considered an expression of misandry. Laughing

Quote:
The everyday fear of violence every woman has to cope with
Men's rights internet forums are seeking to distance themselves from last week's mass murder by a misogynist in California – but it didn't happen in a vacuum
by Eva Wiseman
The Observer
Saturday 31 May 2014

Every woman I know has been shouted at by a stranger, has been called a whore, bitch or slut, whispered to, hissed at, threatened, pressed against, rubbed. Like the time I was a teenager on a busy tube and felt the person next to me work his finger into my short sleeve to stroke my breast, or the time the person in the seat opposite, hiding his crotch from the school party to his right, gestured expertly for me to watch him rub it, or the time we were chased by a flasher in the woods outside school.

Some women I know have been physically attacked, some haven't. Every woman I know has been warned about walking back in the dark, even though they know that most acts of violence happen at home, by somebody they know; every woman I know has carried their keys spiked through their knuckles when they walk down the road at night. Every woman I know texts their friends to say they're home safe. Every woman I know in London has been warned about the temporary alleys round the back of Tottenham Court Road, where the Crossrail is being built and there are unlit blind spots on CCTV. Every woman I know on Twitter or who participates in conversations online or who appears on TV has been mocked for her appearance, for her desirability. Every female writer I know has been compared to a Nazi. Every female writer I know receives emails like the ones I get from men's rights activists, whose messages veer between political theses about the demonisation of men by feminazis, comments on our frigidity, flowery patronising essays and sneering threats.

And every woman I know who has encountered this intimidation – in emails, tweets, below-the-line comments, or after seeing intimate photographs shared by an ex – has been advised to laugh it off. To ignore it. But few of us do, and few of us can, because it's as much a part of the world we live in as the knowledge that we are in danger if we go out in shoes we can't run away in, as much a part of our world as the keys in our fists.

Last week the Isla Vista massacre (where a 22-year-old man with direct links to men's rights activism posted videos in misogynist forums promising to "slaughter" the "sluts" who rejected him) was the first confirmation that we are right not to laugh off the approaches of these anonymous and raging men. On Twitter I read responses from men saying: "I don't blame guns, I blame blondes" and "I hope you women see this as a lesson to stop being so stuck up." The murderer's manifesto (published widely), his disturbed rhetoric, his language of violence and entitlement are sadly familiar.

Advocates of the men's rights movement are united by their belief that feminism is the enemy. It's made up of a mix of men – pick-up artists, male victims of abuse, father's rights proponents – who come together online. One of the most successful communities in the "manosphere" is Reddit's Red Pill. It has almost 53,000 subscribers who believe that women are designed solely for sex and sandwich-making. (I'm paraphrasing, but barely – one email I got this week suggested that "the women's movement is breaking the circle of life, and our humanity").

In the same way that Nigel Farage has been required to repeatedly insist that his party is not racist, this week its members have felt obliged to assert that their community (named after the pill Keanu Reeves takes in The Matrix to unplug his mind from a simulated world) does not support violence. Elsewhere other men's rights groups (and there are hundreds of them) are saying the same: "He wasn't one of us." "His is a perfect case of someone who needed the red pill," wrote Polysyllabist. "Because it's somewhere he could come to vent, and be angry, and not have his pain be dismissed, ridiculed or ignored."

We know that these misogynists, who sneer online or grope on trains or kill, do not exist in vacuums. They are formed by cultures that glorify violence against women, that tell men they're owed sex, that contribute to that background hum every woman learns to block out – every woman learns, early, to be at least a little bit terrified. We're right not to ignore the emails, threats and comments. Can we stop, now, pretending to laugh?
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/jun/01/mens-rights-internet-forums-distance-from-misogynist-mass-murder



FOUND SOUL
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2014 03:48 pm
@eurocelticyankee,
Thanks Euro, book marked.
0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2014 03:55 pm
@firefly,
I've noted a pattern of late, appears to be these young smart azz's that would love a Cougar in their life, because it would fit their thought pattern of " sex and making sandwiches" and that, we are all ho's.

Not even sure if I want to reply, add, walk away in disgust or what pertaining to the link you gave me. Calling "older women" filthy names is beyond belief.

I could be just as rude and suggest that they belong in the small penis syndrome but I'd be stooping to their level wouldn't I.

Quote:
male victims of abuse


The sad reality is both men and women have been victims of abuse. The strong jump over it the weak fall apart and blame the world.
 

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