What % of soldiers are participating in Iraqi Abuse?

So far, it's 7, 13 if you take into account everyone that's been charged.

No one has the number, as of yet.

There have been reports of 6 or 7 at the low end, and as many as 20 to 25 at the high end.

Let's hope it's 6 or 7.

What and 130,000 soldiers in the field there?

You surely don't want, husker, that someone starts with similar figures, like how many US-Americans live, how many are murdered, get raped, abused, drink and drive .....

Walter - no I don't really - I already did that. But what I was getting at is IMO - it's a bad deal - but really over-blown - over the top. My nephew called on the weekend (from Iraq) and he's afraid of hell just to discuss the situation period.

Sorry for the long cut & paste, but I found this interesting/relevant:

--begin quote--

Note: This commentary was delivered by Prison Fellowship President Mark Earley .

The more we read and learn about the mistreatment of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, the worse it gets. New revelations about the conduct of American soldiers shock and surprise us.

But one person who wasn’t surprised by what he learned is Dr. Philip Zimbardo of Stanford University. He has seen it all before.

In 1971, Zimbardo and his colleagues conducted an experiment in the basement of Stanford’s psychology building. After creating a simulated prison, they randomly assigned twenty-four Stanford students to be either guards or prisoners.

Within a few days, the students playing guards had become sadistic. They placed bags over the “prisoners’” heads. They forced them to strip naked and subjected them to humiliating sexual pranks.

Students from one of America’s most prestigious schools descended into barbarism at an alarming speed. Zimbardo was forced to end the experiment less than a week after it began.

The results at Stanford, while dramatic, weren’t unique. An earlier experiment at Yale tested people’s willingness to inflict pain on others. They were told to push a switch that supposedly delivered an electric shock every time another subject answered a question incorrectly. With only the researcher’s insistence for motivation, two-thirds of the participants were willing to deliver potentially lethal shocks to the victim—even though they could hear his screams.

Although the set-up was fake, the willingness of one person to inflict suffering on another was all too real, just as at Stanford. Seeing ordinary college students become sadistic thugs caused Zimbardo to tell the New York Times recently that he wasn’t at all surprised at what happened in Iraq.

According to Zimbardo, it wasn’t a case of simply putting “bad apples in a good barrel,” but the opposite. Prisons, “where the balance of power [between guards and prisoners] is so unequal,” are, almost by definition, brutal places. This makes it vital for authorities to rein in the guard’s worst impulses. Otherwise, as the nineteenth-century Christian statesman Lord Acton famously put it, power will corrupt.

This corruption is the product of our fallenness. We are certainly capable of generosity and kindness, but because we are, as C. S. Lewis called it, “bent,” we are also capable of cruelty and even savagery. And our backgrounds don’t make a difference; because of our sinful nature, given the right circumstances, the potential for what happened at Abu Ghraib lies within all of us.

The founders understood this. This is why we have the separation of powers to guard against the temptation and corruption that comes with power. The correctional system knows this. That’s why they carefully train and monitor corrections officers.

The actions at Abu Ghraib that, as columnist Peggy Noonan put it, “humiliated [our] country” are timely reminders that, whenever and wherever humans are incarcerated or institutionalized, those in positions of responsibility must be vigilant.

That’s why Americans, especially Christians, should not settle for responses that treat what happened as the actions of just a few “bad apples.” Going forward, wise leadership must take into account human sin and depravity—a truth that is not only demonstrable, but is central to a Christian worldview.

--end quote--

I read of at least one of those studies myself, Lab Rat.

So far as percentages go, I would be more interested in the percentage of prison guards involved than the overall military population.

There's a very good film based on the infamous Stanford Experiment.
It's German, relatively new.
It's called "The Experiment".

Husker. May I word a similar question differently?

How many "contractors" are participanting in Iraqi abuse?

Even one is one too many.

Unsupervised kids that is what they were. Now they have to face the real world commanders who duck and run instead of taking responsibility, and that dammed Rumsfield.

Today I was laughing when that Army JAG General was testifying. The committee got a lot out of him. I wonder if a layer worring about his ticket - a John Dean type will blow the whole deal. One can hope there are some honest leaders left in the military.

listened to part of the testomony this morning. i have stated many times before (on other threads) , that IMO the tragedy is , that the leadership failed. i believe general taguba stated that the police-personnel was largely untrained and did not even seem to be aware of the statutes of the geneva convention. training was minimal or non-existent, so what can we expect. i also understand from listeneing to other news-programs that general taguba's mandate was restricted to the investigation of the military police. apparently he was NOT authorized to investigate the conduct of military intelligence officers and civilian contractors(one has to wonder why ?). just listened briefly to senator mccain who stated that this investigation must get to the bottom of it. punishing the m.p.'s would be nothing but a whitewash. hbg

What I cannot understand, I was raised mostly in a Navy town, San Diego, if the Captain of a ship barely bumps another ship or drags on the bottom of the shallow San Diego Bay he or she is toast, gone without a trace. The captain of the ship is the captain and has to take the brunt no matter who was at the wheel.

My guess was that the President was at the Pentagon yesterday to listen to the prep session so they could all get their story straight.

Remember when the DIA accused that poor sailor of deliberately blowing up the ammo magazine because he was gay and had been jilted by another crew member. It was all false, lies. The explosion was not the fault of that poor guy.

Zimbardo was interviewed tonight on PBS Newshour, along with two other equally interesting and accredited scholars, and an ex US military fellow. It will be available for online viewing or transcript by tomorrow afternoon/evening.

It is an extraordinary piece. Please do take the time to watch it or read it.

blatham
do you have a link yet?

thanks for the reminder husker

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june04/prisoners_5-11.html

Joanne:

Corporate America works the same way.

When a company isn't performing the file clerks and the mail rooom staff isn't canned -- it's the guy or gal at the top.

Shareholders have a say and vote accordingly.

With the military, there's a layer that seems to separate them from public accountability. That said, Rumsfeld must go -- immediately.

Yes inforwarrior I am aware that they, the military, do not think civilians are their bosses but alas they are. Every military service and every large military command has a civilian counterpart not subject to transfer to the outlands, demotion, nor can they be offered an early out retirement. These civilian are either GS, SES, or PA. Those in the military who think differently will soon find out who is really in charge.

I predict as this moves forward there will be more and more leaks from both the military and civilian side. Many heads will roll and those at the top who serve in positions that require Congressional approval will learn fast who commands the Commander and Chief and his executives.

Senator John Warner is one Senator McCain is another man of principle. These guys have the ability the courage to speak out. Senator Warner refused to support Ollie North when he ran for the Senate in Virginia. I was proud of him when he said he could not vote for a felon. McCain of course we all know his history both in and out of the military. Another GOP Senator I trust is Lugar. Between the three of them I would say Rumsfield is already dead meat.

what are you smoking?

joanne, your analogy with the captain of a ship is very true. i remember that on one of our cruises, we were entering a harbour with a fairly low-hanging bridge. i remember the first mate telling us that on another ship the captain had accepted the advice of the pilot, that they had plenty of clearance - they didn't. the captain was gone by the end of the day, and a new captain was flown out to take command of the ship. hbg