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Is There Any Reason to Believe the Biblical Story of Creation?

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jun, 2014 12:04 pm
@Olivier5,
I have previously, within this thread, indicated that not only do I not consider the Genesis myth anything but myth, but that I credit ignorance (willful, natural or learned) as the source of modern belief that it is a literal account of the creation of the universe and humanity.

I have also indicated that I don't consider the Bible to be holy scripture and certainly do not believe it is the literal Word of God.

Joe's probably been too busing lurking about and following, with relish, Setanta's nasty-grams to neologist.

I have stated this belief along with the fact that I am not a Christian or a member of any organized religion in a number of other threads as well, but American progressives like Joe neither request the specifics of one's beliefs or really care about them, if you say you believe in God or (God forbid) ever come to the defense of Christians, you are assumed to be a Bible thumping believer in a man with long white hair and a beard, sitting in the clouds and smiting homosexuals with Aids.

I appreciate your effort to correct him, but it won't take. He'll be back at it before too long. It's a reflex he can't control.
Setanta
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jun, 2014 12:06 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I don't have digestive problems. My skin is not thin, that's just a puerile accusation from which you hope to get a angry response. You're not worth that effort. You think you have been assaulted? You think you are being persecuted? The name for that is paranoia. I've never accused you of "assault" or "persecution." You display such a degree of political intolerance that you commonly come here and erect straw men when no one has obligingly provided you with the point of view you are prepared to argue against. When you make blanket remarks about those you are pleased to call liberals, that is a straw man fallacy in operation. I don't think you even understand what the straw man fallacy is. Some atheists, very likely a significant minority, do perhaps operate a belief system. But the word simply means someone who is without god. It's about what they don't believe, not what they believe. You are employing another straw man by that witless attempt to characterize all atheist in a glib dismissal. I only characterize people as deluded when they insist that others partake of their blind faith, unsubstantiated beliefs.

Why should religion or theism get a pass? Why do you suggest that theists should enjoy some special immunity? Given the track record of organized religion, i don't see any reason that they deserve special immunity from criticism. You're one of the most virulent political bigots at this site. So i'm calling bullshit. I usually don't bother, but your idiotic attempt to call for a special immunity about comments on theists, given your common political bile is more than i care to see and remain silent.

If you think you have done me any favors by ignoring me, think again. If you respond to my posts with stupidity--all too common from you--i'll probably ignore it. But if you're spreading manure as foul smelling as this, i'm gonna call bullshit.
neologist
 
  2  
Tue 17 Jun, 2014 12:06 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
The disgusting hypocrisy of you talking about bias is just unbelievable.
Yeah. I know.

. . . . . . .
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jun, 2014 12:13 pm
@Setanta,
I'll borrow a response from neologist and leave you to stew in your bile:

Yeah. I know.
Setanta
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jun, 2014 12:16 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
There's no bile here, clown . . . i enjoy a good and worry-free digestion. I suspect, though, that you're all too familiar with bile on a personal basis.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jun, 2014 12:50 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I happen to like Joe a lot... and you'd probably hate my political ideas. :-)

Even if I don't believe in God, I do come to the defense of Christians every now and then, and yes I have been taken to be a Bible thumper as a result... No big deal. Others don't define us.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jun, 2014 02:22 pm
@Olivier5,
I'm glad you like Joe. I'm not trying to recruit allies.

Don't know what your political ideas are but I wouldn't "hate" or even dislike you on the basis of them alone.

Unless, of course, they included advocating the use of the guillotine on all conservatives.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jun, 2014 02:41 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Unless, of course, they included advocating the use of the guillotine on all conservatives.

Now that you mention it.... :-)
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jun, 2014 05:54 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

It cannot be justified by known facts. That does not mean I am not right, only that I could also be wrong.

And if I believe that aliens are hiding under our oceans and using their advanced technology to conceal themselves, no one today can prove that I am not right, but I'd be a prize fool to believe it without evidence.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jun, 2014 09:29 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Joe Nation wrote:

But, that's the question Brandon9000 is asking: If you could also be wrong, what reason is there for believing ' the Biblical Story of Creation'.? You might as well pick any story, from swimming turtles to great eggs falling out of the stars.

If you're picking this one called 'Genesis' because you're comfortable with it, you're wasting our time and yours.

Joe(still lurking about)Nation

I doubt Finn believes the Genesis story literally... He's talking of God creating the universe, I think.

In the end, we all believe in things without a shed of evidence behind them. Even the most rationalists among us believe in something, if only the power of their own reason.


And when we do believe propositions without any indication that they're true, we are probably wrong a lot. Personally, I'd like to try to reach correct conclusions as opposed to wrong conclusions that make me feel good.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jun, 2014 04:28 am
@Brandon9000,
Maybe everyone just believes what makes them feel good. You just happen to feel good about accurate scientific knowledge.

In other words, maybe it has nothing to do with being right or wrong, but just whichever path feels good.
Olivier5
 
  3  
Wed 18 Jun, 2014 05:15 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
And when we do believe propositions without any indication that they're true, we are probably wrong a lot. Personally, I'd like to try to reach correct conclusions as opposed to wrong conclusions that make me feel good.

Like everyone, you need to believe in your own logic as well as in your senses in order to reach the 'right conclusions'. You cannot prove logic, nor can you prove you're not a brain in a vat... The only thing you can do is believe in logic and in your senses, without proof, or not believe in them.

Love presents a similar conundrum. It's impossible to study objectively. You either believe in it or not.

Finally, the god hypothesis is much more useful than the aliens-at-sea-bottom hypothesis, in that it explains the presence of this universe and of us humans in it. Something science cannot (yet?) explain. Your aliens explain nothing.

My only problem with the God hypothesis is that it requires an explanation for the existence of God. Where does God come from? The question about the origins of the universe has just been displaced... not solved.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jun, 2014 05:18 am
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

Maybe everyone just believes what makes them feel good. You just happen to feel good about accurate scientific knowledge.

In other words, maybe it has nothing to do with being right or wrong, but just whichever path feels good.

I am asserting that believing things without evidence that they're true is likely to lead to wrong conclusions. You think this is in question?
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jun, 2014 05:25 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

...Finally, the god hypothesis is much more useful than the aliens-at-sea-bottom hypothesis, in that it explains the presence of this universe and of us humans in it. Something science cannot (yet?) explain.

Any fairy tale someone made up for it would explain the presence of the universe. That is hardly an indication that it's the correct answer. If you want the correct answer, you have to believe things for which there is evidence.
Olivier5 wrote:
Your aliens explain nothing.

It is an example of the idea that if you don't require evidence, you can believe things that are false.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Wed 18 Jun, 2014 06:33 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
Any fairy tale someone made up for it would explain the presence of the universe. 

Yes, all these fairy tales would be about the same thing.... they generally are.

But you skipped my point that you still trust logic without any evidence for it. So you too believe in something...

Human condition requires that we make decisions based on insufficient information. And sometimes we need to take a leap of faith.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Wed 18 Jun, 2014 12:10 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
My only problem with the God hypothesis is that it requires an explanation for the existence of God. Where does God come from? The question about the origins of the universe has just been displaced... not solved.


Except that his very supernatural nature allows for this, and, in a sense, eliminates the need to ponder the imponderable. There is logic to the notion that a truly all powerful being requires no origin. What Brandon calls reason requires the question "what came before?" and always will unless and until it comes across God.
neologist
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jun, 2014 12:35 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Human condition requires that we make decisions based on insufficient information. And sometimes we need to take a leap of faith.
Worth repeating.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Wed 18 Jun, 2014 12:49 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
in a sense, eliminates the need to ponder the imponderable

In other words, God is a way to "park the issue" of the universe's origins. It does not really resolve it but eliminates the need to ponder it...
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Wed 18 Jun, 2014 02:16 pm
@Olivier5,
It doesn't resolve it from the standpoint that we will ever see Brandon acknowledging it resolved or Neil deGrasse Tyson laying it out as law on Cosmos, but it resolves it for me.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jun, 2014 07:04 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Any fairy tale someone made up for it would explain the presence of the universe. 

Yes, all these fairy tales would be about the same thing.... they generally are.

But you skipped my point that you still trust logic without any evidence for it. So you too believe in something...

Human condition requires that we make decisions based on insufficient information. And sometimes we need to take a leap of faith.

Nonsense. I simply believe in rationality - that you shouldn't believe a proposition without some evidence that it's so. Experience shows that this works, and I'm sure that you use it in your daily life because you know that it works. You are claiming that a belief in rationality is comparable to a belief in a magic buddy who created the universe. You could also use that argument to justify a belief in a committee of 14 Gods who created the universe. You could use it to justify any wacky idea whatever by claiming that I am no better because I believe in evidence as an indicator of truth. These things are hardly comparable. Experience shows that believing in facts based on evidence works. Experience also shows that believing anything you please with no evidence often leads to false conclusions.
 

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