Why do so many Christians claim that they ALONE...........

Everyone...

& I mean everyone...

except me of course

is so totally wrong about everything...

& I mean everything :-)

LOL. Perhaps we achieve excellence in our wrongness Onyxelle.

akaMechsmith writes


Beautifully stated and infused with truth. I know God to be much more than imaginings, but I think He might be pleased for that to be a starting place.

Of course, my question to you is *HOW DO YOU KNOW*? By what means do you come to this knowledge? What evidence do you base this claim of knowledge upon?

If you just have a 'feeling', then it's no different than the guy who claims to 'know' that he's Napoleon. Of course, he's usually the guy with the nice white jacket with arms that tie in the back.

It's more than a feeling Cephas. It is an experience. And here is where the believer and nonbeliever have difficulty in communicating. For how can we explain experience that must be experienced to be understood? And how can one deny the experience of another?

The question here is whether the experience is driving the faith, or faith is driving the experience.

In another thread that is now consumed with a private peeing contest....

Is it logical that a god that is self described as jealous and vengeful, a god that has caused plagues, drought and pestulence, has wiped out entire cities, wiped out all of life except for what was saved on the ark, that this god would then send his son to spread the new word, and then sacrifice his son to horrible torture and death, just so that we, no matter what we have done will be saved, so long as we believe?

Did this god suddenly discover Prozac?

It isn't an experience, it's a delusion. As an ex-Christian, I realize that what I used to claim was an "experience" or a "relationship" was nothing more than a lie, told to make myself feel good. So yes, I can deny your experience because I've been there and I got better.

I'm predicting I'll get a response like "You weren't a real Christian then".

*yawn*

The problem is that these "experiences" don't happen in a vaccuum. The believer simply attributes things to God when there isn't any rational reason for them to do so.

It's like the person who is involved in a horrible car accident. They almost die. Later, they claim God saved their life. Um... and I suppose all those doctors and nurses and medical equipment and paramedics had nothing to do with it?

Or the sports star that thanks God for winning the game. What position did God play again?

It all comes down to wishful thinking, nothing more.

Also in that other thread...


Gen.22:2
"And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. "

Of course we know that was only a cruel test.

Ex.22:29
Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.

Lev.27: 28-29
No devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast ... shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD. None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death.

Num.31:25-29
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation: And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation: And levy a tribute unto the Lord of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.

2 Sam.21:1, 8-9, 14
Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.... The king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul ... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD....And after that God was intreated for the land.

Jg.11:29-40
Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah.... And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.... And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child.... And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back. And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth.... And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed.

1 Kg.13:2
And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

2 Kg.23:20
And he slew all the priests of the high places that were there upon the altars, and burned men's bones upon them.

Again you are reading these texts with 21st Century understanding. A proper careful reading of the Torah and putting the text into its proper context will show that human sacrifice was neither condoned nor practiced then or now.

Yes, I do believe I am reading the texts with an enlightened 21st century understanding. I am reading the same texts as Christians read in their churches and homes. If there should be a more meaningful translation available then bring it. Until then, we have what I quoted, and it says what it says. Do you really think that the majority of Christians jump through the hoops that you do in order to achieve a reading of the bible that agrees with what you think is right.

My view is that the bible is so nebulous as to be totally useless for moral guidance. Hence the disagreement that you have with fundamentalists on interpretation of many of the issues before us today. That is the reason that I have and will continue to post quotes directly from the bible so that by chance some readers may take a second look at what has in the past been taken for granted.

I am also of the opinion that the main reason for most people clinging to faith is because they cannot accept that this life is all there is. I can understand why this is, but I cannot offer a solution.

I am still waiting for an answer to the logic question.

Foxfyre

Nope, They are now read with understanding. Why do you think that the Bible was not translated into the vernacular of the people for well over a thousand years

I submit that the "Church" knew (or thought they knew) darned well what would happen once the Bible could be read by anyone.

They had more faith in the intelligence of the people than later circumstances would warrant.

Meaning that once the common people could read the Bible the ---

a. Priests would have to get honest jobs.
b.God would be discarded along with Jupiter, Zeus, Thor, and Baal, resulting in (a).
c. A rational peacefulness would reign over the earth resulting in (a).
d.A source of divisiveness among peoples would be removed resulting in (a).
Also politicians, especially "divinely appointed monarchs" would lose a large source of their revenues resulting in (?).
I am afraid that the rationality of humanity as a whole was considerably overestimated by the organized religion of those times. It is one of the few times in history when the Church of St. Peter misjudged the effects of the common people gaining knowledge.

Regrettably

2) Sorry, That what it said, We assume thats what they meant, and apparently Abraham was not surprised to be asked for his first born son.

Also you should check out the "Passover". It is another indication that the God of the Bible is perfectly willing to take young lives when it suits Him.

Guys, I'm not going to fight with you about it. If my posts have not convinced you of the logic of my convictions, nothing else I would say will convince you either. I have read again all my posts on the active threads and stand by them all. The foundation of my arguments includes an extensive bibliography and does not lend itself well to an internet forum.

I stand by my conviction that neither Christian, Jew, nor athiest can likely accurately quote Bible as 'proof' of any statement without understanding the original intent, culture, and circumstances of the original writers.

You mean the context that you are right and all the bad, evil things in the Bible never happened because, as we all know, the Bible is perfect.

Gotcha.

Now, I suppose you'll tell us God never committed genocide in the Flood.

You can't convince anyone of the logic of your arguments if you don't use logic. Your convictions are based upon your religious belief, not upon a logical, rational reading of the Biblical texts.

The fact is, Biblical scholars agree that human sacrifice was performed by the ancient Hebrews, particularly the sacrifice of children by their parents. One classic example is 2 Kings 3:27, which reads:

Then he took his oldest son who was to reign in his place, and offered him as a burnt offering on the wall. And there came great wrath against Israel, and they departed from him and returned to their own land.

It was an accepted practice whether you like it or not.

I won't fight with you about it Cephas. The same research material I have been studying for three decades is available to anybody who cares.

Referring to the threads Title---as to the necessity of refuting Christianity.

Simply because it is illogical and there will be little improvement in this world (it may be the only one we have or will ever see) as long as we cannot apply logic to our problems.

If our problems, and there are enough of them, cannot be reasonably solved, then the Armageddon (final battle) becomes a real possibility. And God and Satan will probably have newculear weapons.

It does not help to blame God for our sex drives. (Original Sin) It exists or we wouldn't-period.

It does not help to blame Satan for our evil ways. It can be explained very nicely by genetic variations.

It does not help to pray for a resolution of our problems. In an evolving Universe they will be resolved naturally.

If we wish to resolve problems with minimal costs and suffering, at all we must apply some logic as to their causes and identity. But if God is to be credited for a plague then there is little we can do about it.

Christians, and the other monotheistic religions have been pretty much running things for some six thousand years with IMO unsatisfactory results. Buddists, Multithiests and Animists haven't done any better.

Frankly, I find this is unacceptable, unconscionable and immoral, and just plain stupid. Humans could do better

I am far from certain that Realists and Rationalists would do much better but I think that it's worth a shot.

Well, I'm not throwing all realists and rationalists into this pot, but thinking back over the realists and rationalists of this century who have headed countries: Idi Amin, Fidel Castro, V Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, et al, who among these would you choose as the ideal leader for the United States? Athiests every one; opposed to religious belief every one; and realists and rationalists to a fault every one.

There really are worse things than a President who believes in God.

Foxfire, Four points

1. No, they were not realists or rationalists. Generally they held the view that they were innately superior to others. This has not been observed.

2. Communists (and Socialists) have a view of humanity that does not mesh well with reality. Utopians at best, dictators at worst.

3. "Not religious" is not equivalent to "rational". It is perfectly possible to have an irrational Athiest, but it is not possible to have a perfectly rational "perfect Christian". The cursed hogs and the Ascending to Heaven come immediately to mind, not to mention the "paternity problem"

4. Yes there are, especially if you get one that thinks that he is a god, or takes advice from one.

I think I switched threads Good Evening, M

Just as the same research material is available to anyone who cares to look at it. But you're coming to your conclusion from a Christian bias. You want Christianity to be true.

When I first went looking, I was a Christian who was supremely convinced that if I tested the Bible and the claims of Christianity, they would be confirmed as absolutely true.

Guess what? They weren't.

Anyone who approaches the subject from a logical and rational standpoint, determined to get to the truth, not the dogma, will not find that Christianity or the Bible has any more basis in reality than any other religion. The same rules need to be applied to Christianity as you'd apply to Islam or Hinduism or any other religion. The same textural criticisms need to be applied to the Bible as any other book.

Otherwise, you're just stroking your own ego. If you approach the question with the a priori demand that you're right, then why bother? It's certainly not logical or rational, in fact it violates every rule of logic out there.