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Rummy Is Outraged -- That Someone Leaked The Pictures

 
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 11:22 am
You seem to think I am arguing the case for torture.

Again. I am not making a value judgement about any torture, or the actions you describe.

I was merely pointing out that all nations, all cultures torture prisoners, especially when the possibility of preventing future attacks against their countrymen is high.

Its not something anyone wants to know.

Its just a fact. We don't like to think that we do it.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 12:01 pm
This is going to be lengthy, and falls under the category of what I like to call 'shadetree psychology'.

(The theme runs through several things I have been reading lately, and so I have excerpted small parts and linked them to try to keep the length down.)

Sen. Lindsey Graham, during yesterday's hearing, made the point (in a heavily sampled soundbite among mainstream media outlets) that "we're the good guys."

Josh Marshall expanded on his point:
Quote:
"...being the good guys is about what you do, not who you are. That's a truth that the architects of this war, in subtler but I suspect more damaging ways, frequently failed to understand."


Time and time again we see that Bush supporters are heavily invested in the idea that Americans, or at least "patriotic" Americans who support Bush, are intrinsically good. It manifests itself in the flags flying from houses, car windows, and the corner of television screens on certain news channels. It shows up in the premise that one cannot support the troops without supporting the President, "you're either with us or against us", and so on. This in turn results in the assumption that everything we do must be good, or at least justifiable, or at least not as bad as the stuff those other people do.

This point of view is the basis for much of what passes for modern-day Right-Wing ideology. And this mindset is certainly the foundation for Bush's support in the first place.

Conservative Americans love Bush because he reinforces their delusions about themselves.

Liberals are more likely to see Americans as neither intrinsically good nor bad, just people like other people. This means liberal Americans can admit to faults and mistakes without having an existential crisis. Right-wingers sneer that this is self-hatred and that liberals like to wallow in guilt trips.

No, it's just being realistic, not to mention honest and emotionally mature.

Scott Lehigh, in the Boston Globe:

Quote:
... the tragic error here is in the Pentagon's apparent assumption of American exceptionalism, the notion that even outside the United States, the basic decency of our society will still obtain even without strict rules and requirements.


Along with the assumption of American exceptionalism is the assumption of Bush Administration exceptionalism. As Paul Krugmansaid yesterday...

Quote:
From the day his administration took office, its slogan has been "just trust us." No administration since Nixon has been so insistent that it has the right to operate without oversight or accountability, and no administration since Nixon has shown itself to be so little deserving of that trust.


My impression is that Bush's people are so certain of their own intrinsic good that they find oversight and accountability somehow insulting. Of course, we can only guess at what they're hiding. Are they corrupt, or delusional? Or both?

Another of my favorite bloggersdescribed Rumstud at his personal inquisition last week as well as anyone has:

Quote:
It doesn't come through on the transcript, but it was clear from Rumsfeld's tone, his body language, the expression on his face, and the look in his eye that this was one of those disturbing moments when you realize that this administration's real problem isn't that they lie too much. The problem is that they actually believe what they're saying.


And Bush supporters believe this also -- Bush and his people are intrinsically good and moral; therefore, what they do will be good and moral, and people who disagree with them are not good and moral.

That's really the entire argument in favor of Bush, isn't it? When you peel away the rhetorical huffing and puffing, and all the bravado and excuses and rationalizations, that's all that's left: We're the good guys, because we say so.

And I am certain they genuinely believe this.

For the past three and a half years, I -- and many others, in and out of this forum -- have been dumbfounded that so many Americans are unable to see what a fraud Bush is. I don't think Bush supporters are necessarily stupid (but amazingly, all stupid people seem to be Bush supporters).

I think their conscious mind won't allow them to see it.

Because to admit the truth about Bush would be to admit the truth about themselves -- that America is not exceptional. We are not the Chosen People. To be born American is not to be born into some special state of grace.

Sad but true: most people who support Bush will continue to defend him no matter how terribly he screws up. That's because their perception of Bush is wrapped up in their perceptions of themselves. And people view threats to self-identity with as much alarm as threats to their bodies.

Expect to see the Right put up thicker and thicker walls of belligerence as the situation in Iraq deteriorates. It's all self-defense. They can't admit they were wrong, about Iraq or about Bush, without experiencing a kind of existential death.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 12:19 pm
PDid's quote, "And Bush supporters believe this also -- Bush and his people are intrinsically good and moral; therefore, what they do will be good and moral, and people who disagree with them are not good and moral." The problem with these kinds of statements coming out of this administration is that it implies that everybody is evil or not as "intrinsically good and moral." They're so stupid, they don't understand how this kind of statement is interpreted by everybody else in this world. What's more disgusting is that most Americans also believe that we are "good and moral" people, and support this administration without understanding the damage it has done to international relations. When will people begin to understand that action speaks louder than words; Rummie must resign to begin the healing process. Rummie saying he's sorry does more damage than if he said nothing. Next comes removing Bush from the White House.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 12:41 pm
It's ironic that the Abu Ghraib situation is coming to light as an older one is remembered -- Emmitt Till. (edgarblythe has a great thread about it, here.) Almost 50 years ago, a mob of Mississippi white men dragged Till, 14 years old and black, from his bed. They bashed in Till's head, shot him, and left his body in a river.

Two men accused of the murder years ago were acquitted by an all-white jury that deliberated all of 67 minutes. Apparently new information has come to light, so the 1955 murder case is being re-opened.

Till's mother insisted on an open-casket funeral, so that the world could see her son's mangled face. Photographs of the murdered boy's body ran in newspapers and magazines and galvanized the civil rights movement. (I'm sure many at the time objected to the photos' publication on the grounds that they would stir up trouble.)

The white men who killed Emmitt Till were enraged because he had whistled at a white woman. And I'll bet those men believed that killing Till was the morally right thing to do. They believed that being white made them exceptional. Being white meant being born into a special state of grace.

Yep. Pretty ironic.
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infowarrior
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 12:43 pm
"Sen. Lindsey Graham, during yesterday's hearing, made the point (in a heavily sampled soundbite among mainstream media outlets) that "we're the good guys."" PDiddie

Did you happen to catch that GOP Senator James Inhole yesterday say the Abu Ghraib prisoner victims should "thank Allah they were being tortured by the Americans and not Saddam?"

I always knew these neocons were evil, depraved bastards, but that was the nail in the coffin.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 12:48 pm
And they're the leaders of our country. How sad.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 12:52 pm
Yeah, what a grand standard Inhofe has established.

"We're not as bad as Saddam."

Apparently the White House likes it, though:

Quote:
The White House condemned the killing, which it said reinforced its insistence that US abuses of prisoners paled in comparison with the crimes of its enemies.


Trying to lighten the load here, read this from last night's Daily Show:

Quote:
Stewart: Stephen, what do you think is at play here?

Colbert: Politics, Jon, that's what. Pure and simple. I think it's pretty suspicious that these tortures took place during a Presidential campaign. This is a clear cut case of partisan sadism. You know, come to think of it, I'm pretty sure those Iraqi prisoners want Bush out of office too. You know I wouldn't be a bit surprised if a pile of hooded, naked Iraqis has a job waiting for them in the Kerry Administration.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 02:27 pm
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if a pile of hooded, naked Iraqis has a job waiting for them in the Kerry Administration.


And I would not be a bit surprised if al Qaida destroy an American city before that.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 03:21 pm
Whether the torture we are guilty of was a detached number of individuals--or a covert, systematic program of torture under the surface--there is an important difference in our country and the countries that sanction torture.

We will investigate, and punish those responsible. If our brand of torture is part of a covert, 'hidden' program, it will suffer. I would like to say it will be ended, but I think it goes on, as I stated before--and when the heat is off, it will probably begin again. But, I think we should see it for what it is, and acknowledge that it is used by all.

How do you think so many terrorist plots have been stopped and uncovered since 911? Do you think we used Chinese water torture? That we just kept patiently asking the hard-nosed murderers-in-waiting, and broke their resolve by asking nicely? Again, it is demoralizing to me that my country practices such things, but how do you think so many plots were discovered and stopped?

Many think 'collateral damage' is the ugliest aspect of war. I think it may be this--the ugly underbelly of what is done in the shadows.

Another point to consider: How many Americans cheered when they saw pictures of the torture of Iraqis?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 03:24 pm
Sofia wrote:
But, I think we should see it for what it is, and acknowledge that it is used by all.

How do you think so many terrorist plots have been stopped and uncovered since 911? Do you think we used Chinese water torture? That we just kept patiently asking the hard-nosed murderers-in-waiting, and broke their resolve by asking nicely? Again, it is demoralizing to me that my country practices such things, but how do you think so many plots were discovered and stopped?

Many think 'collateral damage' is the ugliest aspect of war. I think it may be this--the ugly underbelly of what is done in the shadows.

Another point to consider: How many Americans cheered when they saw pictures of the torture of Iraqis?



You mean, torture is commom? In the USA? Or worldwide, in civilized countries, where it is forbidden by law? And do I understand you correct that some might have cheered? Shocked Shocked Shocked
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 03:32 pm
Walter--

I believe torture is universally used by all countries and cultures in wartime, yes, where it is forbidden by law.

I know many countries have had spontaneous celebratory eruptions when my countrymen have been killed. I haven't heard of any such celebrations in my country, regarding the tortured Iraqis. This seems to be another basic difference in the US and the countries that show pleasure at other's disasters and deaths.

We aren't the shining country of perfection, and no one should pretend that we are--or that we should be.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 03:36 pm
Sofia wrote:
Walter--

I believe torture is universally used by all countries and cultures in wartime, yes, where it is forbidden by law.



Well, I don't know about that - we had had a war here since 59 years.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 03:40 pm
I really have a hard time with this statement today by Tom Delay made after he viewed the remaing pictures, "Our enemies are far more evil than we are"
now that's something we can all be proud of.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 03:46 pm
Sofia wrote:
I believe torture is universally used by all countries and cultures in wartime, yes, where it is forbidden by law.


One can dig up isolated incidents of such behavior in almost any war. The problem so many of us here have with your attitude is that when this occurs in war, and it becomes known to responsible authority, it is punished. But you seem to justify it on several bases--that it is universal and eternal, that the other guy is worse, that it is expedient in gathering information. You seem all too eager to defend indefensible behavior.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 03:47 pm
They need to stop using the Berg crime to make us look better in comparison.

The facts of both crimes speak well enough.

I just sincerely hope they are forthright in the investigation of our prisons and techniques. That is the only way we can get through this with a degree of honor.

All in all, we have officially entered a horrific chapter in American History.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 03:55 pm
War is hell, when war should have never happen - it is criminal. As Colin said - this is the Bush War!
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Deecups36
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 03:59 pm
Evidently, sofia has a pretty low opinion of fellow countrymen as they behave during wartimes.

How sad.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 04:06 pm
Setanta wrote:
Sofia wrote:
I believe torture is universally used by all countries and cultures in wartime, yes, where it is forbidden by law.


One can dig up isolated incidents of such behavior in almost any war. The problem so many of us here have with your attitude is that when this occurs in war, and it becomes known to responsible authority, it is punished. But you seem to justify it on several bases--that it is universal and eternal, that the other guy is worse, that it is expedient in gathering information. You seem all too eager to defend indefensible behavior.


I never defended it. But it is universal and eternal. The fact that I bring this up is no defense. The other 'guy'(country) is only worse when it is lawful and celebrated.

Quote:
Evidently, sofia has a pretty low opinion of fellow countrymen as they behave during wartimes.

How sad.

I have a realistic view of human nature in inhuman circumstances. Did you believe Kerry's statement about atrocities committed in his view in VietNam? Or was he lying? You don't believe torture occurs? How naive.
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Deecups36
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 04:19 pm
Why is Deecups not surprised to see sofia work John Kerry's name into the Abu Ghraib torture mess?

What's next, hon, blaming President Clinton? Jeeeeeeesh!
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 04:24 pm
Why is sofia not surprised to see deecups dodging the question?

Kerry is a notable figure, who described wartime atrocities by US soldiers. Does he also have a low opinion of his countrymen in wartime?
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