Evolving gender roles in our societies

You all act like cultural indoctrination of gender roles is this brainwashing process, as if culture didn't evolve naturally, adapted from gender; as if apes don't have the same types of social hierarchies and gender functions... well they do. The further we disconnect from our true inner nature, the less functional society becomes. What we've done is devolved the gender roles.

Should we go back to the bonobo model, with females controlling males through sex?

Women already control men through sex. But we don't live in the same environment the bonobos lived in. Why make an effort take on their social adaptations? What good do their adaptations do us here? Should we change for no reason but because it seems arbitrary from an abstract standpoint? Abstraction is the root of ignorance. You overlook where social evolution has brought us to. Further cultural development is just a random mutation by your arbitrary standard.

I was joking, and showing you that there is not one natural gender model. There are many. And those are not even 100% natural in that there typically exist cultural variations from one group of social animals to the next.

Social evolution, it seems to me, is what YOU would like to avoid by going back to some fantacized paradise lost of gender relations.

You referenced one species of ape found in the congo having a feminine dominant hierarchy. Well they also live in a very resources restricted environment. Meanwhile you're ignoring all the other species of apse in less restricted environments which form a male dominant hierarchies. In restricted environments it is natural for females to take control of the social structure. They are the natural home keepers. Male social structures are the norm for apes, the typical ape lives in a more expansive environment.

Now it's true these days we're in a very resource restricted society. Infact all elements of our society seem restricted. And we live in a very female dominant society these days, despite all the feminists saying otherwise. Yet... this is not a comfortable environment. An environment where resources are available, where freedom and prosperity abounds, where males are going out and conquering the world and bringing back bounty; this is the definition of prosperity. So while we may be shifting into a female dominant heirarchy, this is not something that will be enjoyed, much less should it be embraced. This shift is a result of economic and social starvation.

Living under such restriction and forced social compliance is not something I prefer; I suppose which direction you wana go in life is a choice that you make... Still at the very least we can agree I can make my own choice about what I value, and how I choose to view women; I don't need anyone preaching feminist values in my direction.

Is it really? Western societies have never been so prosperous...


I did not jump on any wagon. I have my own qualms about evolving gender roles, which is precisely why I started this thread. But your take is too simplistic and negative for me.

I agree you are perfectly entitled to dislike feminism. But those ladies got pretty well organised and they progressed by leaps and bounds as a result. Men ought to tear a page or two from their books I think.

If you think Western society has never been more economically prosperous than now you couldnt be any more clueless.

You have to understand that most of these people are not ready to be unplugged.

It is a FACT that feminism made progress during a period of unprecedented prosperity. You're welcome to ignore reality but be aware it might bite your ass one day.

You have neither named the period nor the progress, if we're to even consider it progress. I'm guessing you're referring to the 80s? Please specify.

It's hard to decide on a cut-off point. I'd say the whole post-WW2 era, with feminism picking up during the 50's, going strong in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. By the 90s it becomes a dominant ideology.

During those times of progress the social structure was male dominant. Feminism was sprouting but it was not the dominant institution it is today.

Sure. I see it as the growth of an ideology over time before becoming dominant. I don't see a link with how prosperous society is.

There's two agendas here;

Prosperity as it applies to abundance, or as it applies to consumerism.

There is no question that America had a matriarchal history, pre invasion.

Native Americans had matriarchal social structures? Can you elaborate in more detail on t his?
I'm sure that was true for some of them but there were also very violent native american tribes.
Do you know what percentage of native americans had matriarchal structures?
We like to idealize Native Ameicans as peaceful people ... thats partially true but not quite as true as we like to remember.
I think a balance in power is good but in America right now feminism is dominant, especially in the lower level working environments. So men need to recognize that and have some kind of push against it.
I don't dream of a utopia where women rule the world and we're their little robot slaves.

Actually, you're correct. My post was non-specific, and it was the east coast tribes of America that had/have matriarchal societies.

Just like in America, in Australia, there was no national tribal identity, and it is wrong to make assumptions or generalisations about the various tribal habits or customs.