Evolving gender roles in our societies

@Olivier5,

Ok, I won't do that, am doubting the old place at this point, or maybe will if I force myself to look at the latest list of courses. Just to say that some ancillary interests have career possibilities.

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@Germlat,

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Well, no method of birth control comes with 100% certainty of efficiency. This is perhaps why most women choose partners more carefully. The Russian roulette of sex doesn't work because women want the best advantages for their children...including knowing the identity of the father (although we now have DNA tests).

I'm not sure I'd want to see a DNA test before I do it with anyone.... Too scary! Bound to be something with a very complicated name somewhere in there... on the 23rd chromosome, page 7,653 or thereabout... And you know, all this Mediterranean genes, not sure I agree with that... I hate hairy girls. I would not have sex with anyone if I did that.

Do you have yours ready in case some dude asks for it?

The way I see it, our physical attraction to specific details (facial details, proportions, figure, or skin or hair color) are partly socially driven and partly genetically driven. Our sense of beauty is already tainted with an appreciation for genetic compatibility. Looking at DNA is unromantic to the extreme. Almost eugenic, but in a tranquil, modern, efficient and feminine way... :-)

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I do think society has gone overboard with the rules of attraction. If a man compliments a female's figure it is not sexual harassment. I still think wether your a male or female it's best to test the waters, and read cues before assuming someone's desires. I've seen females throw themselves at men...and I've seen guys look uncomfortable. Nobody wants to feel like prey...better to feel like a participant.

Somebody got to do it. Girls will (I predict) have to do it more and more. I personally never hit on anyone. Too shy for that and you know, it's a bit too complicated for me so I let them come. Which doesn't work very well but in the end it did.... :-) Needless to say, my wife is less shy than I am.

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I've had a varied life, what with religion and rebellion and gaining of savvy, plus all the sex stuff of the sixties and seventies.

All I have to say is don't trust initial cataclysmic attraction.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Some of those "cold empty house" kids often had emotional and behavioural problems because of it.
My mother was always there at home for me and my sister when we got home from school, God bless her..

And look how that turned out! Wink

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My 10-yr-old schoolmate Colin and his brother were "cold empty house" kids and were real tearaways, always getting in trouble with shoplifting and vandalism with emotional problems.
They invited me back to their house one day after school and I experienced for myself the awful coldness, it was terrible because their parents weren't due home from work for another few hours.
They had plenty of comic books, toys, TV and stuff, but none of it could compensate for not having a mum there.
In fact they often used to tag on to me or other kids after school and come home with us so that they could experience a home that was warm with a mum in it.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Okay, point well taken, but it would have been the same thing if there had been a dad in the house instead of a mom, right?

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@Olivier5,

No, kids want their MUMS, not their dads.. Smile

It's hardwired into our DNA from ancient times that dad goes out hunting, and mum looks after the cave and kids, that's the natural harmonious order of things.
My mum occasionally took temporary evening part-time jobs, and although dad was home with us, me and my sister still badly missed her for the couple of hours she was gone.

An episode of the old Dick van Dyke show summed it up perfectly when mum Mary Tyler Moore was away from the family home for a few days, and the storyline revolved around Dick's comical attempts to take her place.
At one point the son is moping and missing his mum, so Dick offers him a banana to cheer him up.
"No thanks!" says the kid.
"But I thought you liked bananas?" asks Dick
"I do" replies his son sulkily, "but mom's bananas are better!"

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Of course boys would like their mum most but in my experience, girls prefer their dad... :-)

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Worst example of the emotional problems for kids who are left on their own while their parents are at work was a kid called Michael who lived down our street.
He simply couldn't handle being home alone all day in the long school holidays, so he used to self-harm to get attention.
I saw him being wheeled out to the ambulance once by paramedics after he'd deliberately fallen face down on his garden fence and nearly lost an eye, and yet there was a little sheepish smile on his face because he was loving the attention he was getting!
His story had a happy ending though, after leaving school he joined the Brit Army and did well, his picture was in the paper holding army trophies and awards he'd won.
No doubt he regarded the Army as the only proper family he'd ever known, not like his absentee parents who were never there for him.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Couldn't he play with other kids during off days?

My siblings and I were rarely at home, always racing around in bicycles or in some game... We'd come home basically for dinner. Missing dinner time was the big no no.

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@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

I've had a varied life, what with religion and rebellion and gaining of savvy, plus all the sex stuff of the sixties and seventies.

All I have to say is don't trust initial cataclysmic attraction.

Beautiful people are sometimes vain and self-centred. Not always of course but it's always a risk.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Who is ultimately responsible Romeo?? I bet the female (historically...females are not allowed individualism) Sorry for the cold home. Women have been putting needs to the side for a millennia ...so why are your endeavors or needs as a male more important than a female's ? why not be an advocate for children yourself? Sacrifice your own needs, desire and intellect...yep...not happening is it?

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@Olivier5,

I was never allowed to play during the week. I was expected to help with the family's businesses . I never spent the night at a friend's house....I had extra homework my parents assigned, language lessons, piano lessons, we explored religions together as a family...my family was not traditional....one thing they harped on was education..particularly for females. Also, they allowed me to travel extensively ...and payed for it. My parents did their best.

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@Germlat,

It sounds a bit all work no play. Would you do/have you done the same with your kids?

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Germlat said: Women have been putting needs to the side for a millennia ...so why are your endeavors or needs as a male more important than a female's ?

What are women's "needs"?
Women used to be contected simply to be good wives and mothers and keep the family home running smoothly, it was and still is a fine and fulfilling "job".
Then the ratbag Womens Lib/Feminist thing came along and made them think being a good wife and mum was a waste of time and that they should "fulfil" themselves by going out and getting a job and put their hub and kids second.
Any woman who puts her family second is not a good proper mum in my opinion.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Perhaps you don't understand a woman's need goes beyond being a wife and mother. No intelligent human being desires for someone else to make decisions on their behalf when one is entirely capable. I know you probably long for days when women couldn't own property or vote. When a person is in that position, that person is at the mercy of someone else's character and whims. Being independent hasn't affected my capacity to be a loyal, nurturing, and loving person to my spouse.

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@Olivier5,

You're right ...mostly work and little play. We were foreigners and my peers played by different rules. I resented my parents at times...but-- they inculcated values I'm grateful for( mostly my father):
1. You do a good job because you have pride in yourself and your abilities...not based on a paycheck
2. You respect people based on character not paycheck
3. You respect people's values...even if they're not your own. Don't internalize values you don't agree with .
4. You don't take abuse from anyone. Fight oppression
5. Always question. Don't let anyone do your thinking for you.
6. Happiness doesn't just lie with hedonism. Self-accomplishment is a great reward.
7. Laziness is a self- limiting trait.
My father was the nurturing parent. My mother didn't have this capacity. My father is a scientist and owns numerous businesses. He is also one of the most humble people I've ever known.

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@Germlat,

A very good set of values or principles. Where were your parents from, if I may ask?

This is interesting from a gender perspective that your father was more nurturing. Also re. your discussion with Romeo. He is making the argument that mothers are naturally more nurturing than fathers, and while there may be a general statistical tendency there (at least in some cultures I guess, if not in all), there are also many individual exceptions... The division of labor and roles in the household should be based on the REAL abilities and "comparative advantage" of the real people composing the household. Gender roles can use some flexibility. It's not like all boys are the same and all girls are the same.

Another interesting thing you said (upthread) is: "one thing they harped on was education..particularly for females." Not/less for males?

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@Olivier5,

My father is German. My mom Italian and Greek. It was expected of males in my family to obtain as college degree ( they all have). My father only had daughters at the time I was growing up. He was afraid we'd wind up at the mercy of our husbands if uneducated. He didn't want anyone to take advantage of us. He believes being uneducated may lead to being vulnerable/ helpless. When my parents divorced, he married a very young woman. She was uneducated. He insisted she obtained an education for the same reasons. She is a lawyer and a journalist and after 20 years they remain together. She adores him.

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@Germlat,

Also the all my female cousins and sisters have college degrees except for my oldest sister. She married a very wealthy man, and he has put her through the ringer ( obviously with her consent....no victims only volunteers ). Both males and females can be treacherous . It's not a matter of gender.

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Evolving gender roles in our societies

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