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What Created Us

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 08:05 pm
BTW, I think those DNA studies are the beginning of understanding our origins. Wink
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Individual
 
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Reply Sun 2 May, 2004 11:13 pm
I like what JLN said, we didn't create the universe we are creating the universe.
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Terry
 
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Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 01:38 am
Individual wrote:
I have heard about individual atoms spontaneously appearing but that at the same time others are disappearing much as one would find in any equilibrium equation. That would mean that for our universe to have been created, twice the amount of all matter in the universe would have had to come out of nowhere. And since something must come from somewhere, especially that volume of something, I cannot embrace that theory for the creation of the cosmos.

Not exactly. A particle and its anti-particle (electron-positron, for instance) can spontaneously pop into existence from quantum fluctuations in the energy field of space-time (see Heisenberg's uncertainty principle) but individual atoms do not spontaneously appear.

The net energy of the universe is zero. Positive energy (matter) is exactly balanced by negative energy (gravity).

We do not know what the multiverse was like before the big bang, but there was undoubtedly quite a lot of "something" (branes, quantum foam, singularity, or whatever) rather than nothing.
Quote:
In the end, I still believe that I must have created the universe. And it is not flawed, Terry, because there is nothing else to compare it with.

Perhaps the universe is flawless from your perspective, but I don't need anything to compare it with in order to know that I could have done a better engineering job, had I been God. The correctable flaws in human beings are obvious. Cosmological flaws are debatable, but colliding galaxies, black holes, asteroids which can wipe out life on an entire planet, and a sun that will incinerate the earth in a few billion years don't seem to be a perfect Plan.

If you could personally create an entire universe, it should be easy to add a teensy little addition: just make a winning Powerball ticket appear on my desk, and I will gratefully acknowledge you as the Supreme Creator. Smile
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Terry
 
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Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 01:39 am
Derevon, what do you suppose that God made the universe out of? Was there pre-existing "stuff" or did he magically conjure it up out of thin air?

It seems rather unlikely to me that a God just happened to exist who had the right stuff, knowledge, and ability to make a universe and everything in it.
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Terry
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 02:09 am
twyvel wrote:

I am not the idea, "I" am the entity that has ideas. Human entities do indeed "have" ideas of the world as well as ideas of self. The mind/self is generated by the processing of sensory data and memory information in a properly functioning physical brain and body.

This apparent paradox only exists in the problematical minds of those who refuse to consider the possibility that people exist independently of their ideas. Where do you suppose that ideas come from, if not from a material universe? Do they spontaneously pop out of nothing?
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satt fs
 
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Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 02:29 am
Ideals created us, and we add to hints to more ideals through our activities, for the better world.
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Derevon
 
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Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 04:21 am
Terry wrote:
Derevon, what do you suppose that God made the universe out of? Was there pre-existing "stuff" or did he magically conjure it up out of thin air?


He made it from himself.

Quote:
It seems rather unlikely to me that a God just happened to exist who had the right stuff, knowledge, and ability to make a universe and everything in it.


Now you're thinking in terms of probability. As far as I'm concerned, your question is no different from asking what the likelihood of one's own personal existence is, which would be extremely futile, since our existence and consciousness are prerequisites to even acknowledge something as probable or improbable. Besides, probability implies time, prior conditions, causes and effects etc. As I said, I believe God just is, and that he is the cause of all other causes. He didn't just "happen to be" in any way. He's beyond all probabilities, in fact, he's the cause of all probabilities. He's ultimate reality itself. Nothing can exist apart from him. He is nowhere and everywhere.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 10:06 am
god screwed up when he created animals with sex organs.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 04:04 pm
Re: What Created Us
Individual wrote:
Finally, I decided that there is only one explanation for everything. I created it.


Have you noticed that all the other people you created in your universe ask themselves the same question.

I wonder which one of us is right? Maybe we're all right. Smile
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JoanneDorel
 
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Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 04:05 pm
We must be rosborune since we are all we have.
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Tiaha
 
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Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 05:56 pm
thanks, Joanne Smile
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twyvel
 
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Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 09:48 pm
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twyvel
 
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Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 09:51 pm
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 09:51 pm
And I'm sheer lunatic. Wink
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twyvel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 09:52 pm
Terry wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
I am not the idea, "I" am the entity that has ideas. Human entities do indeed "have" ideas of the world as well as ideas of self. The mind/self is generated by the processing of sensory data and memory information in a properly functioning physical brain and body.


Can you state one thing, percept or thought that you know other then as idea?


Quote:
This apparent paradox only exists in the problematical minds of those who refuse to consider the possibility that people exist independently of their ideas. Where do you suppose that ideas come from, if not from a material universe? Do they spontaneously pop out of nothing?


Ideas do indeed pop out of nothing, as do all observables. Imagining that they don't doesn't preclude that they do.
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twyvel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 09:55 pm
Very Happy
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 11:20 pm
Twyvel, paradoxes for sure, but word salad as well. I'm not sure you and I are meaning the same thing by "sheer existence" (I was referring to Kant's noumena), and I think we may be conflating "idea" and "experience." DO exist as experience (phenomena). It may be an experience of an "I", but that is only an experience. The existent is the experience, the idea is the illusion. Repeat: the experience of an idea is real--it exists--but the idea itself is not apart from experience (a computer can have "ideas" but no experience of them Very Happy ). Even this idea of experience is only experience. what you call an observable with no observer. Remember the non-dualistic phrase of the Heart Sutra: emptiness (something like non-existence) is form (something like existence), and form is emptiness. Each is exactly the other. We are all one with the tree (form) and none of us exists (emptiness). But what an experience of it all is occuring right now, right here--but by whom?
And to respond to Terry. The material cause of experience is an idea, and both (material cause and the idea of it) exist as experiences so long as they are experienced. Pass the salad dressing, please. Only in silence can we see it. Language hides it magnificently.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2004 11:36 pm
You know, Twyvel, it just occured to me that we have gained a lot by trying to articulate our understanding of the nature of dualism to skeptics. It has forced us to reflect on something which is not very easily reflected upon. Now we non-dualists might gain still more by examining our differences in a new thread. I'm not sure we will be in complete agreement. I hope not. Our differendces may lead us to further refinements and beneficial subjective shifts. At the same time it will be nice not to be neither arguing with the resistant nor preaching to the choir.
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JoanneDorel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 May, 2004 07:18 am
Great idea JLN.

T I have looked into the link your provided me and I am seriously considering doing it. There is a retreat scheduled for May 28, 2004 in Kaufman, TX, which is very close to Dallas. And my neighbors upstairs have said they will take care of the Supreme Bean and Carlotta for me.
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twyvel
 
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Reply Tue 4 May, 2004 12:07 pm
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