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Sat 1 May, 2004 10:45 am
Borrowed from C.N.N. and speaks for itself:
"Macedonia admits staging raid, killing innocents
Friday, April 30, 2004 Posted: 8:14 PM EDT (0014 GMT)
SKOPJE, Macedonia (AP) -- Macedonian police gunned down seven innocent immigrants, then claimed they were terrorists, in a killing staged to show they were participating in the U.S.-led campaign against terrorism, authorities said Friday.
Police spokeswoman Mirjana Konteska told reporters that six people, including three former police commanders, two special police officers and a businessman, have been charged by police with murder.
If convicted, they could be sentenced from 10 years to life in prison.
"That was an act of a sick mind," Konteska said after a two-year investigation. "They ... ordered the brutal murder of the seven Pakistani men."
She described a meticulous plan to promote Macedonia as a player in the fight against global terrorism that involved smuggling the Pakistanis into Macedonia from Bulgaria, housing them, and then coldly gunning them down.
The killings, she added, were part of an attempt to "present themselves as participants in the war against terrorism and demonstrate Macedonia's commitment to the war on terror."
Since breaking away from Yugoslavia in 1991, Macedonia has been eager to win U.S. political and economic support in its search for acceptance into the Western camp of nations.
Macedonia has been a close U.S. ally in the Balkans. It has staunchly supported the U.S.-led war on terrorism and sent troops to Iraq.
The so-called "Rastanski Lozja" action was carried out in March 2002 by special Macedonian police who claimed to have eliminated a terrorist group allegedly plotting to attack international embassies and representatives in Macedonia.
Konteska said that the seven Pakistani men were in fact illegal immigrants who were lured into Macedonia by promises that they would be transferred to Western Europe.
She refused to directly name the suspects.
Kontenska mentioned, however, that police generals Goran Stojkov and Boban Utkovski, and senior police official Aleksandar Cvetkovski, were among those allegedly involved.
She also named former Interior Minister Ljube Boskovski, who is a parliament deputy, in connection with the shootings.
Shortly after the announcement, a parliamentary committee revoked the immunity from prosecution that Boskovski enjoyed as a legislator. Officials said the committee had met earlier in the day following a request from judge heading the inquiry.
Boskovski, interior minister under the former nationalist government, headed the police during Macedonia's 2001 ethnic conflict. He was minister when the Pakistanis were killed.
He denied the allegations, telling reporters that he and his associates received a tip about the alleged Pakistani terrorists from unidentified "American intelligence officers."
Konteska however said a forensic and ballistic investigation confirmed the action was staged. She said the investigation was not finished and more suspects could be found.
At the time, senior police officials said the seven men were killed after a police patrol was ambushed. Police claimed that assault rifles, hand grenades and ammunition were found near a van used by the Pakistanis.
Konteska said the plan to set up the Pakistanis and kill them was made by top police officials in February 2002, when the seven men were brought into the country from Bulgaria and housed in Skopje, the capital.
On March 3, they were taken by police to Rastanski Lozja, about three miles (5 kilometers) northeast of Skopje, and gunned down by special police, Konteska said.
"They lost their lives in a staged murder," said Konteska.
After the killings, the U.S. Embassy released a statement that said U.S. personnel were "not aware of any indication that there was a specific threat" to the embassy.
A U.S. State Department official said on condition of anonymity that the United States had pressed for a inquiry and was pleased there would finally be one.
In apparent retaliation for the deaths, Macedonia's consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, was rocked by a bomb blast on Dec 5, 2002.
Pakistani investigators found three bodies inside -- two men and a woman -- each with their hands and feet bound and their throats slit. Messages scrawled on a wall referred to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida group and warned against "infidels."
There was no comment from the U.S. Embassy on Friday. Pakistan does not have an embassy in Skopje.
Craig Ratcliff, spokesman for NATO in Macedonia, told the Associated Press Friday that the "international community at the time did not have a clear picture whether that was an anti-terrorist operation or something else."
He said NATO was pleased about the government investigation, describing it as "very much a positive step."
John Webb wrote:Borrowed from C.N.N. and speaks for itself:
"Macedonia admits staging raid, killing innocents
Friday, April 30, 2004 Posted: 8:14 PM EDT (0014 GMT)
SKOPJE, Macedonia (AP) -- Macedonian police gunned down seven innocent immigrants, then claimed they were terrorists, in a killing staged to show they were participating in the U.S.-led campaign against terrorism, authorities said Friday.
Police spokeswoman Mirjana Konteska told reporters that six people, including three former police commanders, two special police officers and a businessman, have been charged by police with murder.
If convicted, they could be sentenced from 10 years to life in prison.
"That was an act of a sick mind," Konteska said after a two-year investigation. "They ... ordered the brutal murder of the seven Pakistani men."
She described a meticulous plan to promote Macedonia as a player in the fight against global terrorism that involved smuggling the Pakistanis into Macedonia from Bulgaria, housing them, and then coldly gunning them down.
The killings, she added, were part of an attempt to "present themselves as participants in the war against terrorism and demonstrate Macedonia's commitment to the war on terror."
Since breaking away from Yugoslavia in 1991, Macedonia has been eager to win U.S. political and economic support in its search for acceptance into the Western camp of nations.
Macedonia has been a close U.S. ally in the Balkans. It has staunchly supported the U.S.-led war on terrorism and sent troops to Iraq.
The so-called "Rastanski Lozja" action was carried out in March 2002 by special Macedonian police who claimed to have eliminated a terrorist group allegedly plotting to attack international embassies and representatives in Macedonia.
Konteska said that the seven Pakistani men were in fact illegal immigrants who were lured into Macedonia by promises that they would be transferred to Western Europe.
She refused to directly name the suspects.
Kontenska mentioned, however, that police generals Goran Stojkov and Boban Utkovski, and senior police official Aleksandar Cvetkovski, were among those allegedly involved.
She also named former Interior Minister Ljube Boskovski, who is a parliament deputy, in connection with the shootings.
Shortly after the announcement, a parliamentary committee revoked the immunity from prosecution that Boskovski enjoyed as a legislator. Officials said the committee had met earlier in the day following a request from judge heading the inquiry.
Boskovski, interior minister under the former nationalist government, headed the police during Macedonia's 2001 ethnic conflict. He was minister when the Pakistanis were killed.
He denied the allegations, telling reporters that he and his associates received a tip about the alleged Pakistani terrorists from unidentified "American intelligence officers."
Konteska however said a forensic and ballistic investigation confirmed the action was staged. She said the investigation was not finished and more suspects could be found.
At the time, senior police officials said the seven men were killed after a police patrol was ambushed. Police claimed that assault rifles, hand grenades and ammunition were found near a van used by the Pakistanis.
Konteska said the plan to set up the Pakistanis and kill them was made by top police officials in February 2002, when the seven men were brought into the country from Bulgaria and housed in Skopje, the capital.
On March 3, they were taken by police to Rastanski Lozja, about three miles (5 kilometers) northeast of Skopje, and gunned down by special police, Konteska said.
"They lost their lives in a staged murder," said Konteska.
After the killings, the U.S. Embassy released a statement that said U.S. personnel were "not aware of any indication that there was a specific threat" to the embassy.
A U.S. State Department official said on condition of anonymity that the United States had pressed for a inquiry and was pleased there would finally be one.
In apparent retaliation for the deaths, Macedonia's consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, was rocked by a bomb blast on Dec 5, 2002.
Pakistani investigators found three bodies inside -- two men and a woman -- each with their hands and feet bound and their throats slit. Messages scrawled on a wall referred to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida group and warned against "infidels."
There was no comment from the U.S. Embassy on Friday. Pakistan does not have an embassy in Skopje.
Craig Ratcliff, spokesman for NATO in Macedonia, told the Associated Press Friday that the "international community at the time did not have a clear picture whether that was an anti-terrorist operation or something else."
He said NATO was pleased about the government investigation, describing it as "very much a positive step."
Where not in a game of "patty cake". This is serious. Do you happen to recall the events of September 11, 2001? Did you happen to read where there was a terrorist attempt (using WMD from Syria) to kill 80,000 people in Jordan. That's 80,000 people!! Remember how devastating it was to this country when we lost 3,000? Can you even imagine losing 80,000??
You liberals need to stop calling this "Bush's war" and refer to it as "America's (and humanity's) war". If we don't stand up to it now, our children and grandchildren will never know a safe country. We can either stand up to the evil, as we are doing now, or we can be like the French and roll over and wet on ourselves.
Which option do you choose?
paultheeggman wrote: If we don't stand up to it now, our children and grandchildren will never know a safe country. We can either stand up to the evil, as we are doing now, or we can be like the French and roll over and wet on ourselves.
What exactly are you meaning by what "the French" do?
Oh, and "Welcome to A2K", paultheeggman!
Did you happen to read where there was a terrorist attempt (using WMD from Syria) to kill 80,000 people in Jordan.
Yeah. I also read that one guy has frequent visits by Alien and they talk to him in language only he understand. I read world will come to an end on January 1st 2000th, and I also read that Iraq has WMD.
Question is have YOU read John's post? Think not...
But you are right however. You need to stand up to it or your children and grandchildren will not know safe country. You are absolutely right about that. However, I sincerely doubt that you know against what you need to stand.
"We are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry on this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually on a battlefield." That's from George Orwell's 1946 essay "In Front of Your Nose. I read it in Saturday's NYT at the head of Paul Krugman excellent column. He's not very upbeat
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/30/opinion/30KRUG.html
My thoughts below:
The War against Terrorism is America's war and the world's. There is vast agreement amongst nations, including France, that terrorism is a threat to free people everywhere. The Invasion of Iraq, however, is Bush's War. There is now a connection between terrorist groups and the battles being fought in Iraq, there was not any before the invasion. All the main actors, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and others, have all had to make statements confirming that there was no connection between the terrorist attacks of 9-11 and Iraq.
So why are we there?
We are there because George W. Bush led us there believing that there
was some connection.
And why did he believe that?
Beats the hell out of me.
I suppose when someone is committed to an idea (Saddam bad man) one looks for evidence confirming that idea (yellow cake, mysterious trailers) and ignores evidence to the contrary (UN inspectors) or those doubting (France, Germany, millions on the streets around the world).
The larger problem, it turns out now, is that he and his group of true believers tried to do the two wars at the same time and on the cheap, mostly because Rumsfeld had this theory of fast attackers (which I think he discovered while playing video war games. :wink: ) and Bush wanted to protect his precious tax cuts. The US forces are more then stretched thin, there are holes. Something you do not want while trying to pacify a nation of millions is holes in your strategic position. Chief amongst the examples are the calls for more tanks now. One would be right if he thought that asking for more tanks one year after combat has been declared complete is a bad sign.
Meanwhile Bush, and he alone, has given the Islamic radicals around the world a superb rallying point -an invasion of an Islamic Arab country by a western hyper-power- from which to enlist, not just thousands, but hundreds of thousands in a campaign of terror against all nations. Please remember that al Queda's objective is not just the subjugation of the west, it opposes all governments who do not follow their radical form of Sha'ria. Saudi princes are as much at risk as insurance salesmen in Racine.
Bush in his blindness of true belief may have killed us all.
Joe
Joe Nation wrote: We are there because George W. Bush led us there believing that there was some connection.
Joe
While I agree with the rest of your post, I don't believe this particular sentence is correct. That would make Bush ONLY retarded, while I believe that he is much more then that
Prior to the war and in the aftermath of 9-11 the President, the Vice President and several members of the cabinet including Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz all made statements connecting al Queda terrorists and terrorists in general to the actions they were about to take in Iraq.
Remember Bush's referring to fighting in Iraq as 'fighting the terrorists there rather than here at home' in his State of the Union address, his urging of Dick Clarke to find 'any shred of evidence' that Iraq had been behind the attacks, Wolfowitz's dogged efforts to find Iraqi terrorist activity in the NSA, FBI, or CIA records, (and his incredulity upon being told their was none since 1991.), Cheney's repeated use of the 'weapons of mass destruction falling into the hands of the terrorists' as the most potent reason for the invasion of Iraq. Ad nauseum.
Add to this the O'Reilly's and the Hannity's and the Safires of the media pressworld spewing all kinds of ridiculous notions, murmurs of Atta meeting with Iraqi intelligence in Austria, in the face of direct denials by both the FBI and the CIA.
It took months of repeated inquiries to get most, not all, of these guys to finally fess up that there was no connection between the terrorists of 9-11 and any action against Iraq. And I haven't mentioned Dr. Rice.
Of course, the public still thinks that the connection was, and is, there, they haven't yet caught on that the war against Iraq was a major, major mistake, based on wishful thinking, a desire to fulfill a President's father's mission and, as always, cocksure pride in the knowledge that whatever anybody else was saying those in the know really knew.
Joe
eggman's quote, "You liberals need to stop calling this "Bush's war" and refer to it as "America's (and humanity's) war"." Humanity's? You're kidding right? How is it humanitarian to kill over 10,000 innocent Iraqis whose done nothing to us Americans? You must first study logic, before you use such convoluted statements.
"Misunderestimating" Bush
Bush was once quoted as saying that his opponents had "misunderestimated" him. While the intellectual snobs had a field day with his garbled syntax, that message spoke volumes about why Bush has been successful. Time after time, his opponents have underestimated either his intelligence, his cunning, or his guts. And time after time, he has defeated him.
They said he was stupid, and that Gore would eat him alive in the debates. He let them think that...then surprised them by beating him and making Gore look like a pompous ass.
They said that he was working with a divided nation, that he would have to compromise on his agenda. Hell, no one expects you to actually DO the thinks you promise when you're campaigning. Well, look back on the things he said he would do: tax cuts, education reform, medicare. He's done all three. Democrats have complained for years that the "big bad Republicans" were out to destroy medicare. (Bush called this tactic "medi-scare") They wrung their hands and said "we need to do something...we need to do something". But in eight years of Clinton, they did nothing. Bush comes in and gets free prescription drugs for seniors. He even worked with (Gasp!) Ted Kennedy to get it done. (Of course, Kennedy has later stabbed him in the back, but we knew he would)
Bush will be re-elected in November. Then all you liberals can go crawl in your shells for a while. I'm looking forward to the silence. Of course, you'll eventually come out again at an anti-SUV rally or some other such nonsense. (By the way, take heart...Kerry doesn't own an SUV...his family does! ROFLMAO!!)
paultheeggman wrote:By the way, take heart...Kerry doesn't own an SUV...his family does! ROFLMAO!!
The really funny thing about the Kerry SUV situation is that he was campaigning in Detroit and bragged about the big cars he owned, INCLUDING the SUV. Then later he claimed he didn't own it but his family owned it. Typical Kerry flip-flop.
The title of this thread should be "Macedonian police misconduct exposed" instead of "Bush's War On Terrorism?"
Joe Nation wrote:The Invasion of Iraq, however, is Bush's War.
Wrong. It was initiated by a coalition of countries.
Joe Nation wrote:Prior to the war and in the aftermath of 9-11 the President, the Vice President and several members of the cabinet including Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz all made statements connecting al Queda terrorists and terrorists in general to the actions they were about to take in Iraq.
We know there was a
connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda. That is indisputable. So let's not act so surprised when that connection is mentioned.
Does anyone think it will someday happen that a writer who is published by the Regnery house will actually tell the truth?
Joe
Iraq most certainly is Bush the Butcher's WAR. He broke it so now he has to buy it, only it will be pawned off on us. Nothing American or humanitarian about invading another country to set up a oil-selling, friendly leader instead of the one that was there. Bush has tapped into the fauty assumptions, overreliance upon technology, and of course, the overwheening pride that ensnared America into Vietnam at the hands of a few American despots that see killing as policy, instead of the great evil it is. The "terrorists" aren't bending over and dying for us, either. The more we try to wipe them out, the more likely they will find a way to devastate us. The American colonists did with the Redcoats. The Vietnamese did it to us. The Afghans did it to Russia. You would think at this late date that those in power would understand they really aren't all that powerful, even with great armies. When Davids start spreading all over the place because those in power start getting too powerful, the few Goliaths of the world don't stand a chance.
THAT is why it is Bush's war. He was stupid enough to think a war would work -despite evidence over thousands of years that they don't work.
Stupid idiot. He broke it all right. And we are going to pay for it.
Yeah, I agree. He spends three years creating a big mess that the rest of us will continue to pay for, while he returns to his Taxas ranch to 'retire.' These bozos are dangerous, but half the American People still hasn't realized it. Frustrat'n it is!
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