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US Occupation-End it on July 1st?

 
 
pistoff
 
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 05:28 pm
The question is starting to gather steam.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 960 • Replies: 19
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 05:50 pm
Not going to happen.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 07:59 pm
Well, that's the very best way to make a tragedy into a disaster.

This isn't really a 'pottery barn' case, this is more like an operating theatre where the surgeon was supposed to fix your leg but instead cut you open...big goddamn mistake, but now there's work to be done.
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2004 09:19 pm
Liberation
Gen. Odom says "The US has failed in Iraq and should pull out."


Also, vote in Lou's question of the day.
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight/
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 05:15 am
Im afraid that we will have to stay and fix what weve F*d up. This reminds me of the hostage situation in 1980 when, through no devices of his own, R Reagan managed to gain the freedom of American hostages just by getting elected.
I disagree with Gen Odom, US should pull out earlier rather than later, but not in a fashion similar to the way we left Afghanistan and Iraq in 1991.

It all boils down to failed politics. We should make a concerted effort to give Mr Bush back all the important time he could have been devoting to his GAmeboy and his preaching.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 05:18 am
The US government trying to fix up Iraq is much like a child with a toy doctor set attempting to operate on a real patient. But, unless the UN gets to take over, it's all we've got, and we have no choice other than to perform the surgery.
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 05:56 am
Bring the Troops home!
American troops should be brought home and those 14 Military bases that are planned should be scrapped. Leave people that are working on reconstructing Iraq if they wish to stay. Iraq has been liberated and now it's time for the Iraqis to rebuild their country and workout their own problems.
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 06:21 am
Logic
Former US General says US troops should get out of Iraq
(PTI)

29 April 2004



WASHIGTON -
Quote:
A former US Army General has criticised President George W. Bush's Iraq policy and demanded that the country's forces return from Iraq as rapidly as possible for the sake of American security and economic power alike.


We have failed. The issue is how high the price we are going to pay. Less, by getting out sooner, or more, by getting out later, William E. Odom, who is also a former head of the National Security Agency, told Wall Street Journal.

The longer US troops stay in Iraq, Odom reasoned, the more isolated America will become. That in turn will place increasing strain on international economic and security institutions, he said.

I don't know if the UN, the IMF, the World Bank or NATO can survive this, he commented.

Odom warned that there was no reason to expect that Iraq could soon develop the ingredients for constitutional democracy. The violence of recent months, he said, had exposed Bush's vision of doing it as a dream.

The result of Iraq's elections, he predicted, will resemble theocracy more than liberal democracy. Anyone who is pro-American cannot gain legitimacy, he said.

It will be a highly illiberal democracy, inspired by Islamic culture, extremely hostile to the West and probably quite willing to fund terrorist organisations. The ability of militants to use Iraq for attacks elsewhere, he said, may also increase.
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doglover
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 06:33 am
This is all such a mess Bush and his motley crew have created in Iraq. If we leave on June 30th, a civil war will break out in short order with hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's being killed. It will become another Rawanda. On the other hand, I don't want to see more US soldiers dying in vain in Iraq. I say bring 'em home. Let the United Nations take over. The good people of Iraq have to step up to the plate and start taking responsibility for their own freedom.

Get the troops in Afghanastan where they belong and hunt Osama down and kill the terrorists.

Tomorrow is the one year anniversary of the so called 'Mission Accomplished'. Yeah right. Rolling Eyes
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yilmaz101
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 09:25 am
Weel it is a loose-loose proposition. Either way the US loses, but maybe one is worse than the other. Here is how I read it.......

1. The US pulls out, tries to install a puppet regime of sorts just as the last trooper leaves etc.. scenario: The situation will most definitely quickly detoriate into full scale civil war between the three major players grabbing for power, likely outcome is a very destablized (in other terms a failed) shiia and sunni infighting iraq in the central and southern parts, which basically will be a welcome safehaven for the transnational al-qaida network. In the north the kurds wil consolidate their power and possibly declare independence, unless talabani and barzani don't start fighting between them. If the kurds unite and declare independence, Turkey is likely to somehow try and destiblize it to prevent a kurdish insurgency in turkey from flaring up, if the kurds start oppressing the turkmen minority in the north, turkey may intervene. There fore you will at least have a two way civil war between the shiia and the sunni, but more likely it will become a multilatteral civil war with the kurds fighting among themselves, the turkmen, and the arabs, the arabs will possibly grab at each others throats devided on religious lines, and even the shiia may be devided between sistani and sadr.

2. Secon scenario where the US doesnt pull out but tries to progressively set up an iraqi state.... Well in this case the US will try and balance all these historic vandettas between all the factions of iraqi society mentioned above, a fine juggling act indeed. Chances are it wont be successfull and the insurgency will rise, meaning more fallen us troops. But maybe, just maybe a solution can be reached by dividing iraq in 3. But just as the US pulls out I am pretty sure the three parts would start fighting each other.... The us has basically pushed a stick in the hornets nest, so far the stick is stuck and the hornets are basically stuck in the nest, imagine what may happen if the stick is pulled out.

I see no way out of iraq, it is going to be a quagmire, all because western powers intervened in a place they shouldn't have. First it was the british and the way they set up all these psudo countries..... there is no historic notion of iraq, or syria, or lebenon, or jordan or whatever country you may have over in the region. The only two historically established countries and one stable border are Turkey and Iran, and the border between them, that border has existed for over 4 centuries, and both nations have a history, the Turks for almost the past 1000 years, and the persians almost since the dawn of time, as for the rest they are a creation of english fantasy and american wishful thinking. King faisal, who was chosen to lead iraq by the english, had nothing to do with iraq, he was promised syria, but when the syrians (basically the tribes in that so then called country) revolted he had to flee, and later he settled for iraq. In the middle east one finds that rule of force has always been more prominent than the rule of law.......
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 09:36 am
I voted no. The US has got to stay until it fixes the mess it caused.
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yilmaz101
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 09:40 am
the point is it can't be fixed, it just is such a mess that it will cause pain and despair, both in the US and iraq, and the rest of the world for a long long time.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 09:47 am
yilmaz101 wrote:
the point is it can't be fixed, it just is such a mess that it will cause pain and despair, both in the US and iraq, and the rest of the world for a long long time.


I agree completely. The shrub looks like an chimp, and that's about the extent of his intelligence. Quite a quandary eh?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 09:52 am
The following piece is extremely worthwhile, so I'm linking it on three relevant threads so as to make it known to those who might like to read it.


Quote:
Peter W. Galbraith served as the first US Ambassador to Croatia and with the United Nations in East Timor. As a staff member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in the 1980s, he uncovered and documented Iraq's "Anfal" campaign against the Kurds. Currently, he is the senior diplomatic fellow at the Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation and a partner in a firm specializing in international law and negotiation.

How to Get Out of Iraq
By Peter W. Galbraith

1.
In the year since the United States Marines pulled down Saddam Hussein's statue in Baghdad's Firdos Square, things have gone very badly for the United States in Iraq and for its ambition of creating a model democracy that might transform the Middle East. As of today the United States military appears committed to an open-ended stay in a country where, with the exception of the Kurdish north, patience with the foreign occupation is running out, and violent opposition is spreading. Civil war and the breakup of Iraq are more likely outcomes than a successful transition to a pluralistic Western-style democracy.

Much of what went wrong was avoidable. Focused on winning the political battle to start a war, the Bush administration failed to anticipate the postwar chaos in Iraq. Administration strategy seems to have been based on a hope that Iraq's bureaucrats and police would simply transfer their loyalty to the new authorities, and the country's administration would continue to function. All experience in Iraq suggested that the collapse of civil authority was the most likely outcome, but there was no credible planning for this contingency. In fact, the US effort to remake Iraq never recovered from its confused start when it failed to prevent the looting of Baghdad in the early days of the occupation.


http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17103
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 09:59 am
Wilso wrote:
I voted no. The US has got to stay until it fixes the mess it caused.


Why should they fix it? bushs campaign contributors are making a fortune....
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 10:25 am
yilmaz

A very educated and thoughtful post above. Once again, I'm most pleased to have your contributions here.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 08:17 pm
Know
Mutiny in Iraq

Quote:
Can we please stop calling it a quagmire? The United States isn't mired in a bog or a marsh in Iraq (quagmire's literal meaning); it is free-falling off a cliff. The only question now is: Who will follow the Bush clan off this precipice, and who will refuse to jump?

More and more are, thankfully, choosing the second option. The last month of inflammatory US aggression in Iraq has inspired what can only be described as a mutiny: Waves of soldiers, workers and politicians under the command of the US occupation authority are suddenly refusing to follow orders and abandoning their posts. First Spain announced it would withdraw its troops, then Honduras, Dominican Republic, Nicaragua and Kazakhstan. South Korean and Bulgarian troops were pulled back to their bases, while New Zealand is withdrawing its engineers. El Salvador, Norway, the Netherlands and Thailand will likely be next.

And then there are the mutinous members of the US-controlled Iraqi army. Since the latest wave of fighting began, they've been donating their weapons to resistance fighters in the South and refusing to fight in Falluja, saying that they didn't join the army to kill other Iraqis. By late April, Maj. Gen. Martin Dempsey, commander of the 1st Armored Division, was reporting that "about 40 percent walked off the job because of intimidation. And about 10 percent actually worked against us."

And it's not just Iraq's soldiers who have been deserting the occupation. Four ministers of the Iraqi Governing Council have resigned their posts in protest. Half the Iraqis with jobs in the secured "green zone"--as translators, drivers, cleaners--are not showing up for work. And that's better than a couple of weeks ago, when 75 percent of Iraqis employed by the US occupation authority stayed home (that staggering figure comes from Adm. David Nash, who oversees the awarding of reconstruction contracts).


http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0430-14.htm
0 Replies
 
THE ONE 1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 09:57 pm
Hey pistoff. Have you been watching the news lately? It doesn't seem that you are in touch with what is going on over their in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 10:23 pm
News?
News? What news are you reffering to?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2004 10:39 pm
It's in title only; nothing else changes - as far as many Iraqis are concerned. Perception is everything.
0 Replies
 
 

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