Kerry has lost my vote.

It isn't ideological purity, it's the preservation of the nation. The two major parties are drifting toward oligarchy. Common Americans are recipients of any number of promises, but mostly thinly veiled bullshit, from Democrats almost as much as Republicans. If we hang in there and somehow elect Kerry, it means we have grabbed the rim of the drain and the vortex swirling around us will be slightly delayed sweeping us into the sewer. The slight delay is worth exactly nothing.

I think there's a bit of hyperbole here, but at least you put the blame where it belongs.

I voted Libertarian in 2000. Bush was hardly the darling of conservatives, but he couldn't be the most witless candidate in the race. He won.

Gore, like Kerry, gave the distinct impression that he would say anything or do anything to be President. That he would waffle on any previously held position if it would advance his immediate political fortunes.

Kerry, as a Senator, has a long history of flip flopping. Perhaps it is unfair to view legislators in such absolute terms, but there you have it. Executives trump Legislators for all sorts of reasons.

What is telling is that Kerry is unable to not only shake loose from but turn to his advantage the spurious criticisms of his war record.

What does this dour would be Boston Brahmin have but his war record?
That it is not a slam dunk is telling. Not that it should be a slam dunk in terms of winning the presidency, but certainly it should be a slam dunk in terms of "warrior credentials."

Now there will rise the cacaphony of Lefty voices decrying GOP operatives and their dirty tricks, but why isn't a Silver Star, Bronze Star winner immune to such tricks?

People can argue, ridiculously, over how and why Kerry got his Purple Hearts, but they don't hand out the Bronze and Silver Stars to BS aholes.

My Dad won the Bronze Star in Korea and I know why. It wasn't because he kissed some General's ass. I doubt they awarded Kerry the Silver Star for anything other than bravery.

And yet where is the cache all of the Dems hoped for?

That they are now seemingly willing to eat their own spells big trouble for Frenchy Jacque Kerry.

You're not preserving anything other than the status quo.



I agree that the system doesn't work. However, allowing George Bush to be re-elected isn't the solution. Niether is spending the rest of your life complaining on an internet message board, while intermittantly taking breaks to masturabte furiously. Nor is dancing the moonwalk going to help.

The key word in your sentence is "almost." You agree, I'm guessing, that John Kerry is at least slightly better than George Bush, no? If so, you should vote for the candidate that you feel will be better.



Your position is like holding the principle that I deserve the CEO job at WalMart, but then refusing to move from my janitorial job to assistant checkout operator because it's still not the CEO job and thus not enough of a change. The world changes by degree, it's not edited like a movie where happy times and bad times are cut to together to suit the soundtrack. It is our duty to tkae the present set of circumstances and use the system to make the world a less bad place, all the time working towards whatever principles we hold. It's not to use our principles to beat everyone else over the head and let day to day life take care of itself.

This, I think, sums up my stand rather nicely.

I don't argue the point with right wingers. They are pushing an entirely different agenda, mainly trying to add to any dissention among Democrats and progressives.

Ironzionlion
I have to take exception at the choice of words you use. Creating images of those who disagree with you as retarded or masturbating between posts, throwing in Michael Jackson - What the hell does any of that have to do with anything at all?

Homie, my entire post is packed with relevent arguments. You just latched on to one of the few utterly vacuous attempts at humour that I stuffed in.

They were directed at nobody in particular.

Please, for your sake as much as mine, either respond to my points or come up with a better excuse.

Far be it from me to assume Edgar needs a defender, but to suggest that a sarcastic response to the utterly laughable charge of "You must be retarded..." was the worst possible reply reinforces the idiocy of the original posting.

Edgar, please reject my retention as your defense counsel. Otherwise I, through force of habit, must respond to this idiot.

"They were directed at nobody in particular" And yet they were clearly directed at my client.

"My entire post is packed with relevant arguments." So the inane points are mere "pufferry," and thus not actionable? Of course we need some proof of the claim as a cursory review of the evidence reveals nothing of relevance.

I'm gonna go read a novel. This is getting too heavy for me.

Isent this great! A republican speaking up for a democrat who never votes republican. Too bad there isent a communist party anymore. You could really vote a protest vote.

A "neo-con" (and proud of it!) speaking for an intelligent, but pompous and misguided Dem, in reaction to an utter fool.

Accepting that my pro bono defense of edgar will be rejected, I got in my licks.

Finn and I rarely agree about anything. However, we have an underlying friendliness that has nothing to do with the issue being disgusted here. His arguments against zionironlion's statements are all right with me. I feel that if ilz were more civil my responses would be more to the point.

Edgar - I'm genuinely curious; are you familiar with the Green Party platform, and do you support it?

And even better if the Republicans did the same thing. Then we'd have a very clear choice... poorly defined by the media, no doubt, but a much clearer choice than today.

Scrat
Scrat, Edgar, and eBrown, I've known and worked on projects with Ralph Nader since the 1970s. I've admired and respected his vision of American and voted for him each time he's been a presidential candidate.

But this time, I cannot vote for him because the country is too much at risk under Bush. My past votes for Nader have nurtured my idealism for my country, but have not stopped the direction in which my country is floundering. This time I must vote with my pragmatic brain and not my heart.

BBB

Re: Scrat

BBB and eBrown, I'd like to ask you the same question I asked Edgar; are you familiar with the Green Party platform, and do you support it?

Ralph Nader is not a presidential candidate for the Green Party this year; he's running as an independent.

BBB

Green Party's 2000 Platform:
http://www.gp.org/platform.html

Ten Key Values of the Green Party

Policy and Activism.

As ratified at the Green Party Convention in Denver, CO, June 2000.

1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY
Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect their lives and not be subject to the will of another. Therefore, we will work to increase public participation at every level of government and to ensure that our public representatives are fully accountable to the people who elect them. We will also work to create new types of political organizations which expand the process of participatory democracy by directly including citizens in the decision-making process.

2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY
All persons should have the rights and opportunity to benefit equally from the resources afforded us by society and the environment. We must consciously confront in ourselves, our organizations, and society at large, barriers such as racism and class oppression, sexism and homophobia, ageism and disability, which act to deny fair treatment and equal justice under the law.

3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM
Human societies must operate with the understanding that we are part of nature, not separate from nature. We must maintain an ecological balance and live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities and our planet. We support a sustainable society which utilizes resources in such a way that future generations will benefit and not suffer from the practices of our generation. To this end we must practice agriculture which replenishes the soil; move to an energy efficient economy; and live in ways that respect the integrity of natural systems.

4. NON-VIOLENCE
It is essential that we develop effective alternatives to society's current patterns of violence. We will work to demilitarize, and eliminate weapons of mass destruction, without being naive about the intentions of other governments. We recognize the need for self-defense and the defense of others who are in helpless situations. We promote non-violent methods to oppose practices and policies with which we disagree, and will guide our actions toward lasting personal, community and global peace.

5. DECENTRALIZATION
Centralization of wealth and power contributes to social and economic injustice, environmental destruction, and militarization. Therefore, we support a restructuring of social, political and economic institutions away from a system which is controlled by and mostly benefits the powerful few, to a democratic, less bureaucratic system. Decision-making should, as much as possible, remain at the individual and local level, while assuring that civil rights are protected for all citizens.

6. COMMUNITY-BASED ECONOMICS AND ECONOMIC JUSTICE
We recognize it is essential to create a vibrant and sustainable economic system, one that can create jobs and provide a decent standard of living for all people while maintaining a healthy ecological balance. A successful economic system will offer meaningful work with dignity, while paying a "living wage" which reflects the real value of a person's work.

Local communities must look to economic development that assures protection of the environment and workers' rights; broad citizen participation in planning; and enhancement of our "quality of life." We support independently owned and operated companies which are socially responsible, as well as co-operatives and public enterprises that distribute resources and control to more people through democratic participation.

7. FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY
We have inherited a social system based on male domination of politics and economics. We call for the replacement of the cultural ethics of domination and control with more cooperative ways of interacting that respect differences of opinion and gender. Human values such as equity between the sexes, interpersonal responsibility, and honesty must be developed with moral conscience. We should remember that the process that determines our decisions and actions is just as important as achieving the outcome we want.

8. RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY
We believe it is important to value cultural, ethnic, racial, sexual, religious and spiritual diversity, and to promote the development of respectful relationships across these lines.

We believe that the many diverse elements of society should be reflected in our organizations and decision-making bodies, and we support the leadership of people who have been traditionally closed out of leadership roles. We acknowledge and encourage respect for other life forms than our own and the preservation of biodiversity.

9. PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY
We encourage individuals to act to improve their personal well-being and, at the same time, to enhance ecological balance and social harmony. We seek to join with people and organizations around the world to foster peace, economic justice, and the health of the planet.

10. FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY
Our actions and policies should be motivated by long-term goals. We seek to protect valuable natural resources, safely disposing of or "unmaking" all waste we create, while developing a sustainable economics that does not depend on continual expansion for survival. We must counterbalance the drive for short-term profits by assuring that economic development, new technologies, and fiscal policies are responsible to future generations who will inherit the results of our actions.

Ten Key Values from other state and local Greens.
There is no authoritative version of the Ten Key Values of the Greens. The Ten Key Values are guiding principles that are adapted and defined to fit each state and local chapter.

Scrat
Scrat, I support the goals of the Green Party. They are compatible with my lifelong activism in the following Movements: Civil Rights, Women's equality, Cooperative, Labor Union, and Economic Democracy.

BBB

Scrat,

I support much of the Green's platform, especially civil rights and health care. There are points I disagree with, for example their stance on nuclear power.

I am an independent, but there is nothing that would prevent me from voting for a candidate with this platform with a good conscience.

Quits masturbating furiously (briefly) and moonwalks onto the scene. I have seldom agreed with Ebrown on much, but he's just about got me convinced here. It's not too far to go; since I've backed 3rd party candidates most of my life.

IronLionZion: you were born with a gift for writing so why bother with the sophomoric insults you've employed here? If I were you; I'd use that gift to come up with something like "I'm sorry Edgar, that was childish of me". Edgar's good people and I'm sure he'll forgive you.

It was also widely believed that votes for Ross Perot put Clinton in the Whitehouse. IMHO, it was precisely the "don't waste your vote" mentality that kept Perot out. 4 years later, the 2 party system joined forces to keep him out of the debates, again on the premise, that he didn't have a chance. The last time around he had doubled his following during the debates and had gotten 19% of the popular vote. Like Nader, a vote for Perot was a message that the populace was unsatisfied with the two given choices. I have always believed that if everyone had "voted their conscience" he would have been President.

In your supposedly righteous fantasy world; the system can field (or continue to field?) two candidates that meet it's needs first and the public should always choose between them, regardless of what the public's agenda is. This is the very opposite of voting one's conscience. You are the one attempting to perpetuate the status quo. Lion, you strike me as a young idealist, reminiscent of my sister and brother-in-law's college days when they still thought they could change the world. Re-examine Ebrown's posts. Whatever they may lack in practical applicability; they more than make up for in principle. Your assertions to the contrary do not.

Time to moonwalk back to masturbation (poker).