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News: Internet Trolls Are Really Horrible People

 
 
dalehileman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2014 02:58 pm
@Joe Nation,
Like Set in #……692, I've contributed also to the problem though not exactly in the same manner. In the first place, where many if not most trolls are insolent or profane, I was more condescending or disdainful if not contemptuous. Also I had got into the habit of baiting other trolls, who tend to leave themselves so wide open. The typical troll seems terribly angry at all times about nearly everything, while I delighted in making him even madder

What has mellowed me is the realization of its pointlessness. Instead what you want to do is respond in a perfectly neutral, reasonable way

It makes 'em even madder
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2014 02:59 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
and i did not name them because that's not how i operate. I definitely don't appreciate you trying to start some **** by naming a member when you don't know who i had in mind.

Sorry. I thought that is who you meant.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  5  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2014 04:25 pm
@oralloy,
Really? That's your test for trollness, caring? If someone is earnest about the most twisted idea it's okay for them to punch that idea into every thread and every post they make ad nauseam ?
What if, to fall back onto the Machiavellian portion of the definition, they are only pretending to care about what they are saying in order to get their jollies at your expense?
Everyone is occasionally annoying, but, to me, it's not difficult to recognize when someone is posting in order to tease, obstruct, obfuscate and in general hijack a thread in order to bring pleasure to himself.

~~Setanta was misled by my remark about laughing, I didn't mean to ridicule you for saying what you said about people who care can't be trolls. I was thinking about all the trolls I've run across (and into) whose first defense of their bad behavior is that they really really really MEANT what they said.

Joe(right.)Nation
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2014 05:21 pm
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
Really? That's your test for trollness, caring?

Well, it is one part of it. Trolls try to cause strife and conflict.

The key though is why they are causing that strife and conflict. If they are doing it simply because they enjoy causing strife and conflict, then they are trolling. If they are doing it because they are honestly defending their beliefs, that isn't trolling.


Joe Nation wrote:
If someone is earnest about the most twisted idea it's okay for them to punch that idea into every thread and every post they make ad nauseam ?

I wouldn't say it was OK, but I don't believe that "trolling" is the right term for the behavior.


Joe Nation wrote:
What if, to fall back onto the Machiavellian portion of the definition, they are only pretending to care about what they are saying in order to get their jollies at your expense?

If they are only pretending then that sounds like trolling.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2014 06:18 pm
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:

I think there is a broad difference between offering informed commentary and offering the same in an obnoxious fashion. It's easily seen trolling by others and, if they are really a troll, by the poster. It is, after all, on purpose.

Hmm, here's a question: In order to be a troll, does the troll have to be conscious that he/she is one? Can some just be witless Machiavellian Narcissistic Sadists?





In my opinion, not all trolls consider themselves trolls. They might just be showing their contempt for a sterile culture that much of the country subscribes to. If you've ever been on Amtrak, notice the sterile conversation amongst many passengers. Only occasionally there is someone that sounds alive.

Before the Internet, one could not thumb their nose at the hickiness of a percentage of the country. The internet empowered people; that might be seen as trolling?

Let me pose another thought experiment. If only trolls existed on the forum, would the trolls stay on the forum? In other words, are trolls just attempting to annoy those that think they are the "big kid on the block"? Or, is the labeling of someone as a troll, possibly in some instances, an attempt to maintain the moral high ground while he/she fights to maintain supremacy on their "turf"?

0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2014 06:21 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Foofie wrote:
Would I be correct to say acting like an alpha, on any subject, is troll related? Or just another form of obnoxia? I believe the main heading is obnoxious behavior. Trolling is just a subset.

No. Trolls are people who are obnoxious, mean, cruel, whatever, solely because they get pleasure from acting that way. They do not care at all what the subject of conversation is.

Anyone who actually cares about the subject they are posting about (off topic or otherwise) is not trolling, no matter how obnoxious or "alpha" they act.


I believe that much trolling is not based on sadism. In my opinion, it is often based on maintaining supremacy in an imagined pecking order on the forum's "turf." A lack of empathy with anyone's hurt feelings may be an ingredient of trolldom, but not necessarily actual sadism.
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2014 06:22 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

oralloy wrote:

Foofie wrote:
Would I be correct to say acting like an alpha, on any subject, is troll related? Or just another form of obnoxia? I believe the main heading is obnoxious behavior. Trolling is just a subset.

No. Trolls are people who are obnoxious, mean, cruel, whatever, solely because they get pleasure from acting that way. They do not care at all what the subject of conversation is.

Anyone who actually cares about the subject they are posting about (off topic or otherwise) is not trolling, no matter how obnoxious or "alpha" they act.


Well...I guess that gets you off the hook, right? Wink


Unfortunately, many might just fight fire with fire, so to speak, in my opinion.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 04:31 am
Hileman is not alone in that stupid tactic of alleging that someone is angry in the hope of erecting a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is itself a form of trolling, because it is not about the topic, it's about personalities. It is also pathetically puerile. No one here can see you and they can't hear you. They have no basis to judge the state of your "temper." It's just a rather stupid attempt at schoolyard baiting. It says a lot about the person attempting it, and nothing about the intended victim.

In the end, what it most underlines is the lack of a sense of proportion. There is nothing important about what people do here, and for a complete stranger to assume that they wield some kind of emotional power over the strangers they encounter here is laughable and pathetic. Anyone who comes here believing it is entertaining to do such things deserves to be ignored.
Joe Nation
 
  5  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 06:18 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

In the end, what it most underlines is the lack of a sense of proportion. There is nothing important about what people do here, and for a complete stranger to assume that they wield some kind of emotional power over the strangers they encounter here is laughable and pathetic. Anyone who comes here believing it is entertaining to do such things deserves to be ignored.

Not unexpectedly, Setanta has written what I've thought many times.
Bullies are bullies whether they appear in high school locker rooms, your local bar or on these pages.

While I was walking home last night I remembered how we stopped the local idiots from putting graffiti on our nice red brick wall out front.
We, and by we I mean our superintendent, painted over any graffiti he found as soon as he saw it. So, they would tag the wall at 3AM and it would be painted over by 7:30AM. Nobody saw it, no audience, no victims, just nice red paint.

Joe(click Ignore, you've painted the wall)Nation

Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 07:24 am
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:

While I was walking home last night I remembered how we stopped the local idiots from putting graffiti on our nice red brick wall out front.
We, and by we I mean our superintendent, painted over any graffiti he found as soon as he saw it. So, they would tag the wall at 3AM and it would be painted over by 7:30AM. Nobody saw it, no audience, no victims, just nice red paint.




The concept of dissuading the graffiti artists might work, if it was always the same artist; however, based on the population of taggers, one might be teaching no one a "lesson."

You are reacting to the same feeling that any God might have when He sees graffiti (aka, tatoos) on His lovely human beings. In my opinion, and the opinion of some others (a billion +), tatoos are just graffiti on humans.

Now this post was not trollish; it was just extrapolating from your own pleasant digression.
0 Replies
 
IRFRANK
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 07:52 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
If they are only pretending then that sounds like trolling.



Quote:
In my opinion, it is often based on maintaining supremacy in an imagined pecking order on the forum's "turf."


That's true for all of us to some extent, right? It's a balancing act between that, having a place to express oneself, and maybe from time to time learning something. The relative safety of internet anonymity allows a fair amount of chest pounding. How much pleasure one gains is hard to measure. It does seem many just want to see how long they can string a thread along, or another poster. We all have our reasons.
IRFRANK
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 07:56 am
@IRFRANK,
Quote:
Trolls try to cause strife and conflict.

I would agree .

That's just meanness. Bad karma.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 08:06 am
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:

Setanta wrote:

In the end, what it most underlines is the lack of a sense of proportion. There is nothing important about what people do here, and for a complete stranger to assume that they wield some kind of emotional power over the strangers they encounter here is laughable and pathetic. Anyone who comes here believing it is entertaining to do such things deserves to be ignored.

Not unexpectedly, Setanta has written what I've thought many times.
Bullies are bullies whether they appear in high school locker rooms, your local bar or on these pages.

While I was walking home last night I remembered how we stopped the local idiots from putting graffiti on our nice red brick wall out front.
We, and by we I mean our superintendent, painted over any graffiti he found as soon as he saw it. So, they would tag the wall at 3AM and it would be painted over by 7:30AM. Nobody saw it, no audience, no victims, just nice red paint.

Joe(click Ignore, you've painted the wall)Nation


Perhaps, Joe, but here in A2K...for the most part, a person being called a troll...is just someone who disagrees with the caller's opinions...and will not simply give it.

If one refuses to be bullied...and refuses to simply concede in the interests of allowing someone else to "win"...they often are termed "troll." In circumstances just a tiny bit different they might be labelled "determined" or "resolute."

Anyway, in a forum like A2K...there either are no trolls...or everyone is a troll...because persistence, determination, and resoluteness dominate the personalities here.

And frankly, if the need to call others "bullies" in a forum like this arises too often...perhaps A2K is a kitchen with too much heat for the caller.

Just maybe! Wink
IRFRANK
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 08:07 am
@parados,
Quote:
Sometimes it's nice to get them to argue with each other. It keeps 2 trolls occupied for quite some time.


Wouldn't that be trolling a troll?
0 Replies
 
IRFRANK
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 08:10 am
@Joe Nation,
Quote:
I love it when someone punctures my sense of righteousness.


That's a positive trait. Important to recognize.
0 Replies
 
IRFRANK
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 08:27 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Anyway, in a forum like A2K...there either are no trolls...or everyone is a troll...because persistence, determination, and resoluteness dominate the personalities here.

And frankly, if the need to call others "bullies" in a forum like this arises too often...perhaps A2K is a kitchen with too much heat for the caller.


An insightful comment. It's a moving target. But some tend to stay at the extremes. I'm not sure a personal rating system is a good idea.
Setanta
 
  5  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 10:48 am
@IRFRANK,
It has already been mentioned that one member's troll can be another's wise man. (Reading the thread helps.) But that is meaningless in the context of what people can do. Ignoring those one considers trolls is the best way for people to deal with this, if they think it is a problem. If most members are not trolls, then it will be no skin off their noses. For those whose condemnation as trolls is more universal, it will just mean that no one, or very few members, will interact with them. Problem solved.
jespah
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 11:05 am
@Setanta,
Trolling is also, often, someone who is deliberately (this word is important) obtuse, and continues pushing until they evoke an emotional response or otherwise disrupt things. I know that there are people who just don't get things. And it's rather difficult to determine intent online. We don't have tone, demeanor, gestures, body language, etc. to rely upon.

Still, case in point.

I belong to a bunch of writing groups online; a few are on Facebook. On one rather large one, someone asked about writing a story about Hitler winning WWII. He was really just trying to get people to donate to his Kickstarter. A number of people pointed out that such stories had been written before, and were very nearly a trope. His opening sentence was, "If Hitler had won, what would you be?"

He probably thought he was being awfully clever. So I responded, and just said, "I never would have been born."

He wrote back, "Surely, you would be a Nazi."

"No, I'm a Jew," I replied.

"Then I'll write you in my story, and you'll be the one throwing rubber ducks at Hitler!" (yes, he really wrote that)

I responded one last time, "I don't think you understand just how offensive all of this is to someone like me, and to a lot of other people."

He blithely ignored this and claimed he did understand, and then shilled some more people to fund his Kickstarter.

I was not the only person to essentially tell him to go scratch.

Bottom line, his legitimate purposes - (1) to get funding for his Kickstarter and (2) to see if there was any support out there for his basic plot idea - were overshadowed by the ham-handed way he went about things. Plus he completely ignored the fact that someone had a legitimate gripe and a legitimate reason for being offended. He further ignored the very real fact that writers generally don't want to be written into others' stories without permission (because we know what we do to characters).

Far as I'm aware, his Kickstarter failed, so it's a moot point anyway, but this was a case of, I feel, deliberate obtuseness with an intention to get me and others to blow our stacks. I think that's the important takeaway, that the inability to get something is deliberate, often pushing the other person(s) to continue explaining until the others are exasperated. It's often a push to get others to lose their tempers.

What was the solution?

We ignored him.

Wikipedia wrote:
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 11:10 am
Yeah, the answer is always to ignore them. As for intent, deliberate attempts to get people riled, as i said above about that idiotic tactic of branding someone as angry, its intent, its deliberate purpose is to get such a response.

Answer? Ignore the fool.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 11:15 am
Oh, and you've got a good point about knowing the difference. We've had Hitler threads that lasted for a long, long time. It seems that lately the gloss has worn off them, and we don't get so many new posts. I've taken the time in the past to point out just what an idiot Hitler was, and how he was effectively Germany's worst enemy. Some people have persisted, even after you show them that their assumptions are wrong. (German technology was not uniformly superior, even in cases in which it was, it was labor and material intensive, which delivered fewer useful products to the troops, every measure that is attributed to Hitler and the Nazis which can be claimed to have been good for Germany was actually the product of Weimar, before the NSDAP came to power.) When they continue to rant after that, i ignore them.

The bottom line for this thread is to ignore the fools. I'm glad you folks ignored that jerk at FB.
0 Replies
 
 

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