Treatment of Terror Captives Diminishes U.S. Values

The treatment of detainees at Guantanamo is shocking, not for its reality, but the realisation that it reflects the true nature of the American power.

True.

While the most radical of the far right champion SB 3182, the so-called USA Patriot Act, and its cousin, the USA Patriot Act II, all these draconian acts represent is the inversion of our values.

Our time-honored legal system -- inncocent until proven guilty, under these acts become, guilty until proven innocent. It's a return to ancient Roman law.

If Bush honestly desires the Arab world, as well as the rest of the world to see the USA as a shining beacon of justice on the hill, then hawking an extension of the 2 Patriot Acts is the wrong way to do it.

Had these programs been in effect prior to 9/11 we may have been able to subvert their plans.

Neither bill was in place when Bush received the August 6th, 2001 PBD which warned of such an attack.

Does anyone still think that Bush was taken by surprise on 911?

I was, but then I'm not the president of the USA. I listened to a live broadcast from a school that Bush was visiting on Sept 11 2001, minutes after the second plane hit (i.e. moments after the realisation it was no accident), and what Bush said on the radio made me shout out "he knew!"

Please note, I'm not saying Bush or the republicans or mossad or mickey mouse did it. I'm just recounting my reaction.

I have seen reports that Bush and his entire cabinet were on Cipro before the 9/11 attacks which is more than a little curious.

Like NORAD's failure to take to the skies when 4 commerical airliners in the busiest air corridor in North America veered off their filed flight plans.

I suspect as long as the players are alive, we will never know the truth about that awful day.

I find it incredible that ANYONE would think he knew.

Well McG, I can only recount truthfully my reaction. I was listening on the radio. Plane 1 had hit the first tower. I thought it was a light aircraft, and assumed it was an accident. Then they said a second plane...

but before I could run down and turn on the tv they said Bush was making a statement. So I listened without the distraction of tv, just listening carefully to what he said. Remember this is within minutes or seconds of the second plane strike which meant it could not be accidental.

If I had been president and someone pushed a microphone at me at that point, after a few deletives, I would have said some thing that amounted to..."I don't know what the **** is going on but don't panic obey the emergency services stay away from Lower Manhattan I'm taking charge we are going to get those people out I'm going to Washington right now but we are doing all we can....and dont panic."

But what came across sounded more like a pre prepared statement. Bush put the on-going emergency almost in a historic context. I can't remember exactly what he said... if anyone can find a link to that broadcast I would very much like to listen to it again...but I can never forget the contrast between the shock I was experiencing realising that this was a co ordinated attack, and Bush's reaction.

Now I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I don't think anyone other than al Qaida made those attacks. But I do believe Bush had some fore-knowledge that an attack was a possibility and that after it happened imo he exploited the tragedy for political ends.

Yeah, I agree with you Steve. And FDR knew the exact date and time of the attack on Pearl. And hey, Clinton sure seemed like he knew more about the attack on the Cole than he let on. And how about that coincidence where the Iranian hostages were released right after Reagan took office. Yeah, I bet Reagan had a deal in place beforehand for that. He just seemed too confident at that inaugural.

Shot yourself in the foot with that one, didn't you?

Maybe, but if I did it probably would not be the first time. :wink:

I honestly have not researched to see if there was or was not a deal. At the time, it did not matter to me. All I cared about was their release. And I knew regardless of which admin was in office the moment they were released, it was probably as much Carter's credit as anyone else'e anyway.

I don't believe in either the conspiracy or the cock up theory of history. Its a mixture of both. People are conspiring all over the place to do all sorts of things, but mostly it goes wrong when put into practice. Ask any general staff or board of directors. The cockspiracy theory.

The other night, the History channell had a program about Rennes le Chateau and the the grail. Michael Baigent spewed his usual idiocy about how "mainstream historians" are part of a vast coverup, and how "mainstream historians" ignore information that doesn't fit their conceptual model (he didn't say "conceptual model, beacuse that would have been beyond the eighth grade IQ the History Channel operates at, but you get the point).
I had two immediate reactions:
First: If there is a vast conspiracy, when do I get to learn the secret handshake?
Second: We don't ignore info that's difficult to explain, we revel in it!

As to the original question in the title of this thread: hell, yes, it has diminished and hurt the perception of the US, and I sincerely hope that the Supreme Court sets forth a clear and unambigous ruling on this matter. Our actions in this regard have been unconstitutional (I would assume), and extremely dangerous to us all.

No rights
The reason that the guests at Gitmo have no rights is so that this Govt. can obtain possible info. from them without any restrictions of the interogators.

If US prisoners in any other country were treated this way there would be a National and US Govt. outrage!

After being told the 2nd plane hit the Trade Center the CIC sat there for another 20 min. listening to the kids. Then he went for a photo op at another place. In the meantime the 3rd and 4th planes were heading for their destinations. You be the judge.