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Israeli Who Revealed Nuclear Secrets Is Freed after 18 years

 
 
steissd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2004 02:29 pm
OK, I saw broadcasts of the Palestinian Authority and Hizballah TV companies, where the parents of the homicide bombers talked. They did not grieve, like any normal people do when their underage son dies for any reason, on the contrary, they expressed pride with their offspring that gained the ticket to Muslim paradise (the one with 70 virgins in the mujahideen's disposal). They considered the things that happened to their families to be a great luck and a sign of Lord's benevolence.
This is another world, these people are more alien than even the inhabitants of the other planets (if the latter ones exist at all), and we shall never fully understand their mindset and motives.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2004 03:08 pm
I've seen several recordings and reports where the parents start with that rhetoric then break down and cry.

I've seen others who express the desire to kill the recruiter.

These people are not as inhuman as you seem to think.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2004 03:31 pm
steissd wrote:
OK, I saw broadcasts of the Palestinian Authority and Hizballah TV companies, where the parents of the homicide bombers talked. They did not grieve, like any normal people do when their underage son dies for any reason, on the contrary, they expressed pride with their offspring that gained the ticket to Muslim paradise (the one with 70 virgins in the mujahideen's disposal). They considered the things that happened to their families to be a great luck and a sign of Lord's benevolence.
This is another world, these people are more alien than even the inhabitants of the other planets (if the latter ones exist at all), and we shall never fully understand their mindset and motives.


Steissd - I recognize I can have no understanding of the Israeli experience - with the bombings and hostility and such - but I very much hope that yours is not a general attitude in your country.

It is very chilling to see you dehumanize the Palestinians in this way.

I understand that this sort of crap is common in situations of conflict, but, as I said, Israel of all nations on earth, has reason to understand where such thinking can end up.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2004 03:35 pm
steissd wrote:
When the fertility rate is 6.17 per female ( http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gz.html ), they value their own kids much less than the European mediamen do.


6 kids per female was pretty much the fertility rate for Catholics in the Netherlands two generations ago ... don't think they "valued their kids less" than anyone else ...
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 08:47 am
CdK wrote:
I've seen others who express the desire to kill the recruiter.
DLowan wrote:
Israel of all nations on earth, has reason to understand where such thinking can end up.
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 08:51 am
nimh wrote:
steissd wrote:
When the fertility rate is 6.17 per female ( http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gz.html ), they value their own kids much less than the European mediamen do.


6 kids per female was pretty much the fertility rate for Catholics in the Netherlands two generations ago ... don't think they "valued their kids less" than anyone else ...

Well, but the Dutch Catholics usually were not involved in terror against anyone, and the population surplus (if compared to capacity of the national economy) could emigrate to South Africa or to the Dutch overseas possessions, that were not overpopulated.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 08:57 am
Just pointing out that a cultural indicator like number of kids per family says nothing whatsoever about how much people "value" their own children. That was the inference you made. Enough of that nonsense going around already.
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 09:05 am
nimh wrote:
Enough of that nonsense going around already.

If this is a nonsense, why the current fertility rate in Netherlands is 1.65?
BTW, this is not a number of kids per family, since a Muslim may have up to 4 wives simultaneously, and corresponding number of kids grows to 24...
If some dad has 24 kids, I am not sure that he knows the names of each of them, put away paternal love.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 09:41 am
steissd wrote:
If this is a nonsense, why the current fertility rate in Netherlands is 1.65?


Lot of reasons. The pill and its universal availability. Fact that its covered by health insurance. Sexual revolution. Increased wealth. Women's emancipation and working women. Secularisation.

Caring more about one's children doesn't really come into it.
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 11:18 am
nimh wrote:

Lot of reasons. The pill and its universal availability. Fact that its covered by health insurance. Sexual revolution. Increased wealth. Women's emancipation and working women. Secularisation.

Caring more about one's children doesn't really come into it.

Well, all these, starting from pill and ending with women's emancipation are signs of civilization (well, I have never expressed any doubts in civilized character of Netherlands). Civilized people love their kids and try to protect them. I do not need Palestinians love me or any of my compatriots, let them love their own kids only. When Palestinians start loving their kids stronger than they hate Jews, there will be a hope for peaceful solution of the conflict.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 11:38 am
Love has nothing to do with "civilisation". People without education love their children just as much. Thats one.

Two: you're saying that my list constitutes a list of "signs of civilisation" - and then you say that those "civilized people love their kids". As opposed to those who dont have these blissful "signs of civilisation", I suppose. Let's see just how bizarre that logic is, using the very same set of "signs". People who are not wealthy, people who still believe in a God, people who dont have the pill, cant afford it or dont think they should use it, people who havent gone through the sexual revolution or women's emancipation, don't love their own children? Or love their own children less? Argument is going nowhere.

You will continue to insist, I suppose, that Palestinians are uncivilized and that they love their children less than Israelis. But bringing in birth rates as "evidence" in that context just was a non-starter. Random fodder to the "dehumanisation" dlowan observed, cloaked as an argument.

On an aside: the Orthodox Jewish settlers, who out of their religious ideology bring their children into situations of extreme danger as well - all their children, I should add, because their birth rate is pretty close to the Palestinian one too - do they also love their children less, in your view?
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 11:44 am
Nimh wrote:
On an aside: the Orthodox Jewish settlers, who out of their religious ideology bring their children into situations of extreme danger - all their children, I should add, cause their birth rate is pretty close to six as well - do they also love their children less?

I am afraid, such people (constituting not more than 5 percent of Israeli Jewish population) really prefer their ideological dogms to interests of their own kids. Well, they are far from being completely civilized (BTW, their fertility rate is much higher than average in Israel). Civilization is not a direct function of ethnic origin.
Unfortunately, some flaws in Israeli electoral laws provide them with disproportionally high political influence.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 11:48 am
I am with you in regretting those flaws.

I don't believe Orthodox Jews love their children any less than anyone else either, though. No matter what their birth rate.
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 12:09 pm
nimh wrote:
I am with you in regretting those flaws.

I don't believe Orthodox Jews love their children any less than anyone else either, though. No matter what their birth rate.

Some of them have 15-20 kids. This is not a family, it is already an infantry squad. It is impossible even to get acquainted with all of them, not only to love. This refers equally to Arabs and Orthodox Jews.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 05:42 pm
steissd wrote:
This is not a family, it is already an infantry squad.


LOL!

I still disagree with ya, steissd, but that was a great one-liner
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Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2004 11:57 am
steissd wrote:
This is another world, these people are more alien than even the inhabitants of the other planets (if the latter ones exist at all), and we shall never fully understand their mindset and motives.


But you can make a conclusion about something personal as loving their kids. What I always thought is that emotions over all are the hardest to understand.

We are giving you a hard time, aren't we steissd? :wink:
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 02:33 am
What Vanunu says: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,9698727%5E28737,00.html


'I was not a traitor': Vanunu
From The Sunday Times
May 31, 2004
FOR the first time since he was kidnapped by Israeli agents in 1986, Mordecai Vanunu has spoken out publicly about his abduction and 11 years in solitary confinement.

Vanunu, in the only interview he has given since he vanished from London 18 years ago, explains why he fell for "Cindy", the Israeli undercover agent who lured him into a honey trap.

He reveals that there was a Frenchman among his abductors, relates how he was beaten and injected with drugs during his kidnapping, says he has no regrets for taking the wraps off Israel's secret nuclear arsenal and discloses that he thought he was losing his mind in prison.

"You forget the past. Your brain is empty of all the images you have of the past. Watching only walls all day can damage the brain," he says.

Vanunu, who left prison last month after serving his full sentence for treason and aggravated espionage, gave the interview to an Israeli journalist, as he is banned from speaking to foreigners.

In 1986 Vanunu, who was a taxi driver in Sydney and had converted to Christianity, offered his story to The Australian on the advice of John McKnight, the rector of Darlinghurst's St John's Anglican Church, who oversaw his conversion. However, Piers Akerman, the then deputy to the editor-in-chief, turned him down, believing the Israeli to be unstable and possibly on drugs. So did both of Sydney's daily newspapers. It was after this that Britain's The Sunday Times, alerted to the story, flew a journalist to Australia to interview him.

Last week Peter Hounam, the reporter who broke Vanunu's story and subsequently campaigned for his release, was arrested in Tel Aviv by Israeli security agents hunting for tapes of the interview.

He was freed after the intervention of Vanunu's lawyers and the British ambassador.

Vanunu has been unable to tell his story in his own words since September 1986, when he handed Hounam details and photographs of Israel's secret nuclear weapons plant, housed in a deep bunker at Dimona in the Negev desert.

Israel has always refused to confirm that it has nuclear weapons. At the time, experts estimated that it had no more than 20 bombs. Vanunu, a former technician at Dimona, revealed that it had the production capacity for well over 100 atomic weapons and was able to make much more powerful thermonuclear bombs. He supplied details of the program.

It was while Vanunu was staying in London, as The Sunday Times checked his disclosures before publication, that "Cindy" caught his eye on a West End street. "She looked like a very nice woman, American, a little bit of a beauty, not tall or short, blonde hair," says Vanunu.

"After crossing the street she went in one direction and I went in another, but after 50 yards I asked myself if she was interested in me. Go and ask her what she wants, I said to myself.

"I caught up with her and asked her, 'Who are you and what are you doing?' We started talking." A close relationship developed: "She was good company and affectionate. She used to kiss me a lot ? all the time."

Cindy persuaded him to take a short holiday with her in Rome, where he was immediately ambushed and repeatedly injected with a drug ? "I could walk and see, but I was not in control" ? and shipped in chains to Israel.

"One [of the guards] was Israeli but we spoke in English. The other one was a Frenchman, speaking in French, not understanding English. I spoke a few words to him because I knew French."

He was landed clandestinely on an Israeli beach, strapped to a stretcher and taken to Ashkelon prison, where he remained until last month.

"To move from being a free man, walking in the streets of London, to finding oneself in a cell is a huge fall ? like falling from a very high building to the ground. You lose everything," Vanunu recalls.

Initially he was kept "in a very secret part of the prison. Nobody knew about me. They kept me for five days in a small cell without windows." When he was charged with aggravated espionage and high treason, "I was very angry. I was not a traitor; I did not go to any enemy with my information. I didn't work as a spy. I felt they just wanted to punish me."

He said his motive was "not about betraying Israel; it was about saving Israel from a new holocaust. My point was to bring the subject to the public and to prevent any future war and make it very clear that war is not the way to solve problems."

Vanunu was in solitary confinement for the first two-thirds of his sentence: "I decided I should do everything I could to keep my sanity.

"I told myself in the first days: whatever I do, I shall get out of this prison as strong in mind and body as I am now.

"I could not speak with anyone, so I decided that I could speak by reading. I used to take the Bible in English to read it in a loud voice, or I prayed in a loud voice, or I was singing, humming. Most of the time my aim was to be alert. I was afraid that I would be under psychological brainwashing ? that they could change my mind, put some new idea, a little idea here or there. So for 24 hours a day I was alert for what was happening and suspecting anything. That was my way to survive."

Vanunu's lawyers are to seek an urgent meeting with Israel's Attorney-General to try to lift the ban on him leaving the country or meeting foreigners.

They believe the Government is in a dilemma about how to handle mounting concern about the restrictions after a week of heavy-handed actions by Shin Bet, the internal intelligence service. Vanunu's brother Meir says international criticism of Israel has reached the point where a negotiated solution might now be considered.

"He has no more secrets to reveal," Meir says. "He has given a detailed press interview with which the secret service can find no fault. I hope they will see reason."

Besides arresting Hounam and Saadi Haeri, a BBC editor, last week, Shin Bet also stopped Bishop Riah Abu El-Assal, head of the Anglican Church in the Middle East, as he was entering Israel at the Allenby Bridge border crossing from Jordan on Friday. The bishop has allowed Vanunu to stay at St George's Cathedral in Jerusalem since his release from prison.

"They made me remove all my belongings, took me to a room and interrogated me for 90 minutes," El-Assal said on Saturday. "They tried to persuade me to stop providing sanctuary to Mordecai. Their action was improper and an affront to my position, and I am writing to the President, who is a friend, to tell him my feelings."
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margo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 01:03 pm
I think the title of this thread is incorrect.

Vanunu is not free, only incarcerated in a different place.

He paid for this crime, but is still not able to live any normal way. As soon as he leaves that cathedral, some indoctrinated idiot will try and kill him.

Don't ever believe that Israel is a free country. The brainwashing there is every bit as invasive and thorough as any other extremist regime.
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Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 01:05 pm
What to say? I bet Israel is in that case no unique case in this world. But I'll just wait for steissd. :wink:
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2004 01:36 pm
Margo wrote:
As soon as he leaves that cathedral, some indoctrinated idiot will try and kill him.
It seems unlikely, maximum, some rotten tomatoes and foul eggs may be thrown at him when he passes by the street. But if he violates conditions imposed on him by the law authorities, he may be taken back to jail.
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