steissd wrote:Craven de Kere wrote:It also acts when there is a lull in violence coupled with pressure toward settlement so as to remove said pressure.
It is a non-substantiated statement.
I've substantiated it several times on these boards. I have to go soon for an all-night outing but if you'd like me to cite examples I can do so another day.
Quote: Right now, both PM Sharon and Secretary of Defense Mofaz advocate withdrawal from Gaza combined with removal of all the settlements.
I usually try to avoid using the word "settlement" to describe an eventual Israeli/Palestinian teritorial settlement so as to avoid confusion with Israeli settlement of Palestinian land, and should have here.
I am not talking about settlements, I am talking about an eventaul settlement of the dispute.
But while we are on the subject, Sharon has indeed made promising statements. I applaud them.
I will, however, wait and see how the "facts on the ground" develop. I have seen him make claims about settlements and then turn around and say it is ok to settle Palestinian land quietly.
Quote: It has not been yet implemented due to some difficulties pertaining to democratic procedure (Mr. Sharon is neither an absolute monarch, nor a dictator, and if parliament rejects his plan, he will be unable to implement it; meanwhile he searches ways to bypass resistance of the hardliners in his own party, starting contacts with opposition; but all this takes time).
I sympathize with Sharon, he is faced with extremists on both sides and he used to be one himself. I hope he wins.
Quote:The recent escalation of violence was not caused by the settlements issue. It was a result of explosion of the armed personnel carrer in course of the routine raid of IDF aimed to destroy Palestinian makeshift landmines and explosive belts manufacturing facilities (I hope, you will not deny obvious connection between such "industrial enterprizes" and terror). The aim of the recent operation in Rafah was to impair abilities of enemy to attack our troops, this is quite a legitimate task in course of any war.
Having made no claim that the recent escalation was due to settlements I am unsure what response you expect.
steissd, because I was not talking about settlements I am again unsure if this should have been directed to me.
Quote:Craven de Kere wrote:The IDF routinely targets edifices that have nothing to do with terror in retaliatory attacks.
One such example of this kind of attack are the air strikes the IDF often performed on PA police stations as immediate retaliation to suicide bombings.
First of all, these edifices were not residential buildings, therefore they have no relation to the humanitarian problems under discussion.
How so? When did residental become the definition of humanitarian problem? I think you are invoking a rule that has not been established.
Destroying the PA infrastructure caused a humanitarian crisis that the subsequent reoccupation had to deal with formally.
Quote:These are offices of PA, in other words, enemy's facilities.
<smiles>
steissd, feel free to try to substantiate this. It's far too easy to just name enemies and not bother with discriminating between targets.
What I speak of were PA police outposts that were not involved in terror at all. Israel both attacked the police and demanded that they act against terror.
So to recap, they shoot at them and destroy their facilities while demanding that they act to help them.
Then once they destroyed the PA infrastructure Israel reoccupied locations that had been moving toward self-determination.
You can't make a case that the destruction of the PA infrastructure had anything to do with terror.
An easy case can be made that said destruction was aimed at removing what was a step toward the Palestinian dream as the PA was an interim authority and by destroying it Israel set the Palestinian dream of statehood back.
You will not be able to show
any evidence at all that the PA police buildings bombed in retaliatory airstrikes had anything to do with terror.
Quote:Second, police stations were not destroyed as a response to a homicide bombings. The police station in Ramallah was shelled after two captured Israeli reservists were lynched in its premises.
Your first statement is a false one. Police stations and PA buildings were routinely destroyed during an early phase of this intifada. I am not talking about that specific incident but rather a retaliatory pattern by the IDF when they needed a symbolic retaliation and had no leads.
They'd just use the PA as a punching bag.
Quote:Another episodes of police stations destruction pertain to the initial stages of the current intifada, when Palestinian policemen in uniform took active part in hostilities.
False. Palestinian policemen were only significantly involved when Israel began the extensive military incursion into Palestinian refugee camps.
Prior to this Israel had already established a pattern of retaliating against PA infrastructure and police.
Quote:
In all these cases PA was warned, and the police stations were abandoned when being shelled. So, this caused no human casualties. It was tantamount to a warning shot into the skies that precedes opening fire toward a perpetrator.
This is true, and I said as much earlier. Israel usually "called it in". But it became so predictable that the police started packing and leaving on their own volition if some bomber happened to be from their town.
But this is the point I've been making all along. The IDF was not going after suspects (as evidenced by letting them go), they were going after symbolism.
Now to you it's a 'warning', and to the Palestinians whose interim government is being destroyed it's provocation and incitement.
Which brings us full circle, the IDF does, in fact, engage in "symbolic" attacks that provoke the Palestinians and incite their anger while not directly targeting terrorists but rather the Palestinian people through symbolic attacks.