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Israeli Who Revealed Nuclear Secrets Is Freed after 18 years

 
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 02:03 pm
Correct me if I am wrong, but in the case of the tunnels, eventually a lot of children end up on the street (without concluding whether their parents are guilty of terrorist activities or not). My point: these children are homeless for something they can not control - they can not be responsible for, nor influence their parents actions. Meanwhile, these children are mentally scarfed (in my opinion).

Another generation with hate against Israel is born.
0 Replies
 
steissd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 02:25 pm
First of all, it is not an anecdotal evidence. I did not get information from the other participants' stories, I am a participant. OK, I cannot prove this, since no certificates were issued to those taking part in the Defense Shield operation. It is clear that not being a professional mediaman or lawyer, I cannot unequivocally substantiate my claims for technical reasons. Even if I had in my disposal photographic pictures of the makeshift landmines factory, this would not prove that the barrels found there contained ammonia nitrate, aluminum powder, gasoline and other explosives ingredients and not, for example, flour, olive oil or sugar. I saw these barrels and their contents, but smell of ammonia and gasoline cannot be transferred by means of the WWW.
I base my statements regarding deployment of Hamas, Jihad and Tanzim military facilities in the middle of the densely populated areas on obvious facts: none of these organizations has a military camp dedicated only for these purposes on the territory of Israel or Palestinian Authority. And here are some proofs, provided by the Amnesty International, the organization, least complementary toward Israel after Al-Qaeda:
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The report called on the PA to prevent Palestinian gunmen from using Palestinian populated areas to fire on Israeli populated areas and to arrest the perpetrators of attacks.
( http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/mde/israel+and+the+occupied+territories+?Open ) Of course, on the same site you can finds tons of scrutiny of Israel, but they were necessitated to admit, though indirectly, the fact, that Palestinians use their own civilians as human shields.
IDF has enough discrimination in its activity, but when the fighting occurs in the densely populated areas collateral damage is inevitable. If Palestinian militants change their tactics from terror attacks to frontal battle against IDF in some non-populated areas, there will be no collateral damage at all. And the fact that they are weaker than IDF is a bad excuse. If they do not feel that they can defeat IDF without causing damage to their own compatriot civilians, then they should cease their activities, if they are really concerned in the latters' security and well-being.
IDF is not involved in any provocative or inciting activities. It acts when there is an intelligence information available, regarding illicit weapons trade and manufacturing, preparation of the terror attack or terror organization leaders' whereabouts.
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 02:36 pm
But does the IDF not takes to much for granted that civilians can get killed by IDF's bullets? You justify it by calling it collateral damage; in that case the IDF never seems to be guilty - it's always collateral damage.

But I do not think the families of the victims feel the same.
0 Replies
 
steissd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 02:43 pm
Rick d'Israeli wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but in the case of the tunnels, eventually a lot of children end up on the street (without concluding whether their parents are guilty of terrorist activities or not). My point: these children are homeless for something they can not control - they can not be responsible for, nor influence their parents actions. Meanwhile, these children are mentally scarfed (in my opinion).

Another generation with hate against Israel is born.

The word "children" became a specific mantra of those dealing with the humanitarian problems in the military conflicts areas. But I want you to read the following:
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Hundred of thousands more children have been recruited, both into governmental armed forces and armed opposition groups. While most child soldiers are aged between 15 and 18, many are recruited from the age of 10 and sometimes even younger. In many countries, both girls and boys are used as soldiers
Source: http://www.child-soldiers.org/cs/childsoldiers.nsf/displaysmessage/About_Child_Soldiers?OpenDocument . And as a participant of the Afghan war in mid-80s (as a Soviet infantry officer, I am not a native Israeli), I can recall numerous encounters where kids of 10-14 years old were directly involved as active combattants, part of them even being mercenaries (they were paid, for example, for installation of anti-vehicle and anti-personnel landmines on the roads).
Regarding hatred. It does not depend on what Israel actually does. I remind once more: the so-called Palestine Liberation Organization was established in 1965, when Israel did not occupy even a square millimeter of either West Bank or Gaza Strip (they were occupied in 1967 as a result of defeating by IDF of armies of the Arab countries that attempted to eliminate Israel and to implement final solution of the Jewish problem).
0 Replies
 
steissd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 02:50 pm
Rick d'Israeli wrote:
But does the IDF not takes to much for granted that civilians can get killed by IDF's bullets? You justify it by calling it collateral damage; in that case the IDF never seems to be guilty - it's always collateral damage.

But I do not think the families of the victims feel the same.

Families of victims cannot be unbiased by definition, even if their son was killed while having an assault rifle in his hands; they will still curse Israel and USA. Their son/nephew/brother in their opinion is an innocent angel and living impersonation of good will, and the soldiers that returned fire when being shot at are monsters by definition.
And very serious measures are being taken by IDF to minimize collateral damage; but under the present conditions it is virtually impossible to completely avoid it. I do not know what is your experience in the Netherlands Army, but I am a former Soviet infantry officer, and I have participated in both Afghan campaign in mid-80s and in some of the IDF operations. So, I have at least some idea of the ground operation tactics.
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Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 02:56 pm
Steissd, can Palestinian children also be innocent in your eyes? It seems to me you see all these Palestinian children as wannabe-terrorists.

I'm just 17, so I can not join the army - not that I would :wink:
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 03:04 pm
I do not regard a common Palestinian kid as a terrorist, unless he is caught armed. Some of them will be terrorists, some will not. Those belonging to the families of the local elite have less chances to become involved, their families will send them to colleges abroad. The underprivileged families encourage their kids to commit suicide bombings, since they are being paid for that: Hamas pays $5-10 thousand to the family members of the "holy martyr" (when Saddam was a president of Iraq, he added his contribution to the mercenary families paycheck). When the fertility rate is 6.17 per female ( http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gz.html ), they value their own kids much less than the European mediamen do (I mean the mediamens' attitude toward Palestinian kids, and not their own).
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 03:11 pm
steissd wrote:
First of all, it is not an anecdotal evidence. I did not get information from the other participants' stories, I am a participant.


steissd this is the definition of anecdotal evidence. The term in debate does not mean an anecdote but rather too small a sampling of evidence.

Your own participation renders you an authority (I use the debate term here) on those particular incidents that you witnessed but it does not pass muster if it is to be evidence of the entirety of the IDF's activities.

Quote:
OK, I cannot prove this, since no certificates were issued to those taking part in the Defense Shield operation. It is clear that not being a professional mediaman or lawyer, I cannot unequivocally substantiate my claims for technical reasons. Even if I had in my disposal photographic pictures of the makeshift landmines factory, this would not prove that the barrels found there contained ammonia nitrate, aluminum powder, gasoline and other explosives ingredients and not, for example, flour, olive oil or sugar. I saw these barrels and their contents, but smell of ammonia and gasoline cannot be transferred by means of the WWW.


steissd,

I believe your claims in regard to your experiences. Where we part company is that I do not think your anecdotal evidence is convincing except in reference to the incidents you witnessed.

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Palestinians use their own civilians as human shields.


True, but so does the IDF. The IDF frequently used Palestinian civilians to approach houses where there were Palestinian militants in case the entries were booby trapped.

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IDF has enough discrimination in its activity, but when the fighting occurs in the densely populated areas collateral damage is inevitable.



I am not speaking of collateral damage. I am speaking of policy.

I am not speaking of accidents.

The IDF routinely targets edifices that have nothing to do with terror in retaliatory attacks. In fact they will sometimes call in a warning to make sure that it's just a symbolic retaliatory attack.

One such example of this kind of attack are the air strikes the IDF often performed on PA police stations as immediate retaliation to suicide bombings.

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If Palestinian militants change their tactics from terror attacks to frontal battle against IDF in some non-populated areas, there will be no collateral damage at all.


Where do you envision this collateral damage free battleground?

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And the fact that they are weaker than IDF is a bad excuse. If they do not feel that they can defeat IDF without causing damage to their own compatriot civilians, then they should cease their activities, if they are really concerned in the latters' security and well-being.


I agree without reservation. In fact if they really cared for their cause at all they'd pull a Ghandi and have Israel on the defensive. Their militancy is bourne of their anger at Israel and said anger is making them adopt idiotic means.

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IDF is not involved in any provocative or inciting activities.


The IDF is involved in provocative and inciting activities.

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It acts when there is an intelligence information available, regarding illicit weapons trade and manufacturing, preparation of the terror attack or terror organization leaders' whereabouts.


It also acts when there is a lull in violence coupled with pressure toward settlement so as to remove said pressure. It also reacts with symbolic retaliation against non-tactical targets (e.g. Pals bomb a bus, IDF blows some unrelated PA building).

The reasoning often given for this kind of symbolic retaliation has psycological grounds and it can be construed as either provocative or symbolically retributive. Or both.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 03:13 pm
steissd wrote:
I do not regard a common Palestinian kid as a terrorist, unless he is caught armed.


Merely being armed makes them terrorists?
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 04:05 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
steissd wrote:
I do not regard a common Palestinian kid as a terrorist, unless he is caught armed.


Merely being armed makes them terrorists?

Yes, it does. Underage kids are not supposed to carry arms. There is no reason in the world for them to do it, except taking part in hostilities.
They are not soldiers, since PA has no regular army, neither are they policemen. They do not wear any uniform, distinguishing them from the innocent and unarmed civilians. Therefore, there is no law in the world that defends their lives.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 04:26 pm
So Sharon, who was armed and admittedly prepared to kill hostile Arabs as a child was a terrorist?
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 04:37 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
It also acts when there is a lull in violence coupled with pressure toward settlement so as to remove said pressure.

It is a non-substantiated statement. Right now, both PM Sharon and Secretary of Defense Mofaz advocate withdrawal from Gaza combined with removal of all the settlementsDefence Shield
Craven de Kere wrote:
The IDF routinely targets edifices that have nothing to do with terror in retaliatory attacks.
One such example of this kind of attack are the air strikes the IDF often performed on PA police stations as immediate retaliation to suicide bombings.
First of all, these edifices were not residential buildings, therefore they have no relation to the humanitarian problems under discussion. These are offices of PA, in other words, enemy's facilities.
Second, police stations were not destroyed as a response to a homicide bombings. The police station in Ramallah was shelled after two captured Israeli reservists were lynched in its premises.
Another episodes of police stations destruction pertain to the initial stages of the current intifada, when Palestinian policemen in uniform took active part in hostilities.
In all these cases PA was warned, and the police stations were abandoned when being shelled. So, this caused no human casualties. It was tantamount to a warning shot into the skies that precedes opening fire toward a perpetrator.
The standard response following a suicide bombing is as follows:
1. Imposing curfew on the place the attacker having come from (they never come from the places where the curfew has already been imposed; they are merely unable to leave such places in order to infiltrate through the Israeli border).
2. Performing raid on such a place in order to arrest militants and activists of the terror organizations; those that render armed resistance to arrest, may be killed.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 04:39 pm
" Therefore, there is no law in the world that defends their lives."

I'm sorry, Steissd?

Presumably there are laws against murder in Israel?

Would it not be necessary for the kids concerned actually to attempt to USE such weapons against people for there to be no law to protect their lives?

Even then, is there not some law regarding reasonable force for the situation?
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 04:43 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
So Sharon, who was armed and admittedly prepared to kill hostile Arabs as a child was a terrorist?
You publicize episodes of Mr. Sharon's biography that are unknown even to himself. But this is not the main point. Mr. Sharon was an underage kid when there was no State of Israel, and the territory was controlled by the UK. He was born in 1928, you may make the necessary calculation, taking into consideration that the Haganah military organization that Mr. Sharon was a member of, ceased armed resistance during the WWII, therefore Mr. Sharon was unable to be involved in any hostilities in 1939-45, at age of 11-17.
But if he were caught armed by the UK Army patrol at any age, he could be sentenced to death as a terrorist.
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 04:45 pm
To Ms Lowan: There is a law protecting POWs, they are not the ones, since they are not soldiers. There is a law protecting the unarmed civilians on the territories occupied by the army; they are not these either. They are irregular combattants, and laws of any country provide such people no protection.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 05:06 pm
steissd wrote:
Craven de Kere wrote:
It also acts when there is a lull in violence coupled with pressure toward settlement so as to remove said pressure.

It is a non-substantiated statement.


I've substantiated it several times on these boards. I have to go soon for an all-night outing but if you'd like me to cite examples I can do so another day.

Quote:
Right now, both PM Sharon and Secretary of Defense Mofaz advocate withdrawal from Gaza combined with removal of all the settlements.


I usually try to avoid using the word "settlement" to describe an eventual Israeli/Palestinian teritorial settlement so as to avoid confusion with Israeli settlement of Palestinian land, and should have here.

I am not talking about settlements, I am talking about an eventaul settlement of the dispute.

But while we are on the subject, Sharon has indeed made promising statements. I applaud them.

I will, however, wait and see how the "facts on the ground" develop. I have seen him make claims about settlements and then turn around and say it is ok to settle Palestinian land quietly.

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It has not been yet implemented due to some difficulties pertaining to democratic procedure (Mr. Sharon is neither an absolute monarch, nor a dictator, and if parliament rejects his plan, he will be unable to implement it; meanwhile he searches ways to bypass resistance of the hardliners in his own party, starting contacts with opposition; but all this takes time).


I sympathize with Sharon, he is faced with extremists on both sides and he used to be one himself. I hope he wins.

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The recent escalation of violence was not caused by the settlements issue. It was a result of explosion of the armed personnel carrer in course of the routine raid of IDF aimed to destroy Palestinian makeshift landmines and explosive belts manufacturing facilities (I hope, you will not deny obvious connection between such "industrial enterprizes" and terror). The aim of the recent operation in Rafah was to impair abilities of enemy to attack our troops, this is quite a legitimate task in course of any war.


Having made no claim that the recent escalation was due to settlements I am unsure what response you expect.

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Defence Shield


steissd, because I was not talking about settlements I am again unsure if this should have been directed to me.


Quote:
Craven de Kere wrote:
The IDF routinely targets edifices that have nothing to do with terror in retaliatory attacks.
One such example of this kind of attack are the air strikes the IDF often performed on PA police stations as immediate retaliation to suicide bombings.
First of all, these edifices were not residential buildings, therefore they have no relation to the humanitarian problems under discussion.


How so? When did residental become the definition of humanitarian problem? I think you are invoking a rule that has not been established.

Destroying the PA infrastructure caused a humanitarian crisis that the subsequent reoccupation had to deal with formally.

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These are offices of PA, in other words, enemy's facilities.


<smiles>

steissd, feel free to try to substantiate this. It's far too easy to just name enemies and not bother with discriminating between targets.

What I speak of were PA police outposts that were not involved in terror at all. Israel both attacked the police and demanded that they act against terror.

So to recap, they shoot at them and destroy their facilities while demanding that they act to help them.

Then once they destroyed the PA infrastructure Israel reoccupied locations that had been moving toward self-determination.

You can't make a case that the destruction of the PA infrastructure had anything to do with terror.

An easy case can be made that said destruction was aimed at removing what was a step toward the Palestinian dream as the PA was an interim authority and by destroying it Israel set the Palestinian dream of statehood back.

You will not be able to show any evidence at all that the PA police buildings bombed in retaliatory airstrikes had anything to do with terror.


Quote:
Second, police stations were not destroyed as a response to a homicide bombings. The police station in Ramallah was shelled after two captured Israeli reservists were lynched in its premises.


Your first statement is a false one. Police stations and PA buildings were routinely destroyed during an early phase of this intifada. I am not talking about that specific incident but rather a retaliatory pattern by the IDF when they needed a symbolic retaliation and had no leads.

They'd just use the PA as a punching bag.

Quote:
Another episodes of police stations destruction pertain to the initial stages of the current intifada, when Palestinian policemen in uniform took active part in hostilities.


False. Palestinian policemen were only significantly involved when Israel began the extensive military incursion into Palestinian refugee camps.

Prior to this Israel had already established a pattern of retaliating against PA infrastructure and police.

Quote:

In all these cases PA was warned, and the police stations were abandoned when being shelled. So, this caused no human casualties. It was tantamount to a warning shot into the skies that precedes opening fire toward a perpetrator.


This is true, and I said as much earlier. Israel usually "called it in". But it became so predictable that the police started packing and leaving on their own volition if some bomber happened to be from their town.

But this is the point I've been making all along. The IDF was not going after suspects (as evidenced by letting them go), they were going after symbolism.

Now to you it's a 'warning', and to the Palestinians whose interim government is being destroyed it's provocation and incitement.

Which brings us full circle, the IDF does, in fact, engage in "symbolic" attacks that provoke the Palestinians and incite their anger while not directly targeting terrorists but rather the Palestinian people through symbolic attacks.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 05:07 pm
steissd wrote:
You publicize episodes of Mr. Sharon's biography that are unknown even to himself.


Fault Mr Sharon for writing it in his own biography then.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 05:08 pm
steissd wrote:
To Ms Lowan: There is a law protecting POWs, they are not the ones, since they are not soldiers. There is a law protecting the unarmed civilians on the territories occupied by the army; they are not these either. They are irregular combattants, and laws of any country provide such people no protection.


The determination of who is and is not an unlawful combatant is a distinction that by law needs to be made on a case by case basis by a "competent tribunal".

Not by remote analysis by pudits.
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Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 May, 2004 07:28 pm
You guys think you need a new thread, maybe? This one started out on an entirely different subject. Think I'll cancel the e-mail updates on this one now.
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Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2004 11:24 am
steissd wrote:
When the fertility rate is 6.17 per female ( http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gz.html ), they value their own kids much less than the European mediamen do.


How can you say this? Do you really think that having more children makes parents loving them less? Do you really think those parents want to see their children getting killed?
0 Replies
 
 

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