Israeli Who Revealed Nuclear Secrets Is Freed after 18 years

Yeah, just like the United States. Imagine.

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Wilso wrote:

margo wrote:
Don't forget - Israel is a democracy - it just seems like a police state!

Do it's Palestinian citizens get the vote, or are they not considered citizens?

There are no Palestinian citizens in Israel. Palestinians either have no citizenship or hold the Jordanian one from the period prior to 1967, since the occupied territories have never been annexed by Israel. There are Israeli Arabs, and they have voting rights, just like all the other citizens. There are several MPs of Arab origin, and their constituency are mainly Israeli Arabs (they belong to the parties that deny Israel's right for existence, so it would be weird if the Jewish citizens would give them their votes). There are some Arabs in the mainstream parties: Meretz, Labor and even Likud (the Arab Likud MP Mr. Eyub Kara belongs to the Druze religious minority that is loyal to Israel).

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Merry Andrew wrote:

I'm afraid I have to back steissd on this. I can see absolutely no virtue in selling out the secrets of one's country to the news media for profit. In what sense is Vanutu described as a "hero"? He is an Israeli citizen who betrayed Israel. Maybe I'm just not "liberal" enough to understand the reasoning of some of you people.

I want to add something. Neither I feel any sympathy toward Mr. Pollard, an American traitor that spied in favor of my country. He was the U.S. Navy officer, so he was supposed to be loyal to the USA only. He got what he deserved, the same refers to Vanunu (unfortunately, the Israeli court was too lenient and did not impose on the SOB several life imprisonments, and it is a pity that there is no compulsory physical labor in Israeli jails).

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steissd, agree with you totally re: Pollard. Everyone I know wanted to go soft on his sentence because, after all, he was spying for Israel, a friend, not the USSR or some other potential enemy. I couldn't see the difference. Treason is treason, no matter in whose favor the act is committed.

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steissd wrote:

By the way, despite of being of East European origin, I do not belong to upper middle class of the country. For half a year I was unemployed. It was a very difficult condition that made me even to consider suicide. But no thoughts about stealing, selling drugs, pimping or committing another kinds of crime have ever visited my head.

Rick D'Israeli wrote:

...where there is clear distinction between the richer Ashkenazi (European) Jewish Israeli's and the poorer Oriental / Sefardic Jewish Israeli's (also included in the last group: Israeli Arabs and "Beta Israel", Jewish Ethiopians)

First: I'm sorry that you are in this situation, I didn't mean to attack you personally. What I said in my post - and this can be unclear - that there is indeed a distinction. With that I mean of course in general. I realize that a lot of new immigrants from Eastern Europe, especially from the former Soviet Union, do belong to the so-called "lower classes". But what I mean is that under the immigrants and their offspring who are in Israel already longer, like from the independence of Israel or even before, there seems to be a distinction. What I understand is that when you are an Ashkenazi in Israel you have a better change to succeed, to get a job, etc. than when you are from the Maghreb (North-Africa) or Yemen, Iran etc.

I apologize for my Oriental / Sephardic connection I made. I do realize that not all Sephardic are from the Oriental (the Netherlands have, or better had, a large Sephardic community of over 14,000 in 1940), there are a lot of Sephardiem in Western-Europe, even 10% of the Jews in Moscow are Sefardic. And on the other hand there are Jews in the Oriental who aren't Sephardic, what also counts for the Yemenite Jews, the Iranian Jews, the Jews from Central Asia (although in these countries a big percentage of the Jews are Ashkenazi immigrants from mostly Russia) and so on. So my apologies for that.

steissd wrote:

But no thoughts about stealing, selling drugs, pimping or committing another kinds of crime have ever visited my head.

I do not hope you suggest here that this differs Ashkenazi from Oriental Jews.

steissd wrote:

..for example, Lord Benjamin Disraeli, Earl of Beaconsfield, that may be your relative, was one of them...

As far as I know he is no relative of mine :wink: .

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To Mr. d'Israeli: I have mentioned several people having made an excellent career in Israel, including the current Israeli President Mr. Moses Katzav (he is of Iranian origin), Defense Secretary Lt.-Gen. Saul Mofaz (born in Tehran), Foreign Secretary Dr. Silvan Shalom (his parents came from Tunisia), Deputy Finance Secretary Mr. Meyer Sheetreet (born somewhere in Morocco). Their origin did not make them any problems in their career growth, since these people have deliberately westernized themselves. They are, in fact, Europeans, despite of having been born outside Europe. So, actual ethnic origin is not of concern, the mentality is.

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steissd wrote:

Wilso wrote:
margo wrote:
Don't forget - Israel is a democracy - it just seems like a police state!

Do it's Palestinian citizens get the vote, or are they not considered citizens?

There are no Palestinian citizens in Israel. Palestinians either have no citizenship or hold the Jordanian one from the period prior to 1967, since the occupied territories have never been annexed by Israel. There are Israeli Arabs, and they have voting rights, just like all the other citizens. There are several MPs of Arab origin, and their constituency are mainly Israeli Arabs (they belong to the parties that deny Israel's right for existence, so it would be weird if the Jewish citizens would give them their votes). There are some Arabs in the mainstream parties: Meretz, Labor and even Likud (the Arab Likud MP Mr. Eyub Kara belongs to the Druze religious minority that is loyal to Israel).

And yet they've got the right to get their homes bulldozed, as they are doing right now.

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But my point is: when these Oriental Jews aren't Westernized, they share a sort of mentality - according to you - that is more open for crime etc., but in my eyes you can not blame this on a certain Oriental mentality. Even if this mentality excists, I do not think you can see it as an Oriental mentality - that is generalization. Further more, you base this conclusion on two examples. Are there really details about this, is there a research which shows that there is a real link between criminal activities - to give an example - and this so-called Oriental mentality?

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Wilso wrote:

And yet they've got the right to get their homes bulldozed, as they are doing right now.

I repeat once more: unlike Israeli Arabs, Palestinians are not Israeli citizens. The homes are being bulldozed when either they belong to known terrorists, or when they are used as a firing positions or illicit tunnels (used for smuggling of weapons from Egypt) start there. Any Palestinian may easily avoid his house being bulldozed: not to be involved in hostile activities and not to keep a tunnel of such kind at home.

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Rick d'Israeli wrote:

But my point is: when these Oriental Jews aren't Westernized, they share a sort of mentality - according to you - that is more open for crime etc., but in my eyes you can not blame this on a certain Oriental mentality.

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Since Israel started their anti-tunnel campaign at the end of 2000, it has destroyed around 2,018 houses there leaving 18,382 people homeless according to the United Nations agency that oversees refugee camps (UNHCR). (James Bennet NYTimes May 22, 2004)

So, as Israel demolishes Palestinian houses and created thousands upon thousands of homeless Palestinians it creates the conditions for the recruitment of militants vowing revenge against Israel who in turn dig more tunnels for weapons smuggling, attack IDF personnel, and suicide bomb Israelis, who in turn destroy more houses leaving Palestinians homeless creating conditions for the recruitment of militants . . .

So, Israel helps to create a situation whereby it cannot leave the occupied territories for the sake of its own saftey.

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InfraBlue wrote:

Since Israel started their anti-tunnel campaign at the end of 2000, it has destroyed around 2,018 houses there leaving 18,382 people homeless according to the United Nations agency that oversees refugee camps (UNHCR)

in flagrante delicto and punished.

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InfraBlue wrote:

Since Israel started their anti-tunnel campaign at the end of 2000, it has destroyed around 2,018 houses there leaving 18,382 people homeless according to the United Nations agency that oversees refugee camps (UNHCR). (James Bennet NYTimes May 22, 2004)

So, as Israel demolishes Palestinian houses and created thousands upon thousands of homeless Palestinians it creates the conditions for the recruitment of militants vowing revenge against Israel who in turn dig more tunnels for weapons smuggling, attack IDF personnel, and suicide bomb Israelis, who in turn destroy more houses leaving Palestinians homeless creating conditions for the recruitment of militants . . .

So, Israel helps to create a situation whereby it cannot leave the occupied territories for the sake of its own saftey.

They've also no electricity, no water, no sewerage, and they've killed 41 people in the last 2 weeks. And the Israeli's claim they're the good guys. THEY ARE NOT.

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Though I"m sure steissd will manage to come up with some justification for this situation.

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I don't believe 18,382 people were involved in the tunneling.

The Israeli response was ham-handed, and it serves to perpetuate the conflict.

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InfraBlue wrote:

The Israeli response was ham-handed, and it serves to perpetuate the conflict.

That's exactly what they want.

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Well, many houses were destroyed since they were used as firing positions by the militants. The houseowner permitting some terrorist to shoot from his house must be ready to cope with consequences. I do not know whether such permissions are being granted on ideological or commercial grounds, but this does not influence the result: the house used for shooting at troops is being bulldozed or exploded.
And around 500 houses that were destroyed in the past 4 years contained tunnels. This does not mean that all them operated simultaneously. When IDF destroys some tunnels, the new ones are being dug, starting in another houses. Illegal weapons trade is a very profitable business (it is often combined with smuggling of another goods, like narcotic drugs and "tax-free" cigarettes), therefore people take risks and get involved. But they should not pretend being innocent victims when such activities make them homeless.
The high number of people being left homeless is explained by large sizes of an average Gazan family: the birth rate in Gaza is one of the world's highest (average number of offspring per female is 6.17).

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steissd wrote:

The homes are being bulldozed when either they belong to known terrorists, or when they are used as a firing positions or illicit tunnels (used for smuggling of weapons from Egypt) start there. Any Palestinian may easily avoid his house being bulldozed: not to be involved in hostile activities and not to keep a tunnel of such kind at home.

This is not entirely true. Homes have been bulldozed simply to forge an entry for troops and vehicles. Furthermore, it is often unecessary for any complicity to exist for the bulldozong to take place.

When Israel enters dense locations like Jenin, and civilians flee the resulting combat homes are sometimes destroyed without complicity of the owners (for just one example, if a militant holed up on a house the IDF might make calls for him to exit and then just bulldoze the house on top of him if he does not).

Yes, Israel does make some attempt to keep the home-wrecking to a criteria like the ones you allege but the truth is that your standards are frequently not met.

Many homes are destroyed without any complicity on the owner's part.

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OK, Mr. de Kere, you get information from the media sources, and I was a participant of the Defense Shield operation in Nablus in 2002, and I witnessed three demolitions of such a kind. The first house hosted a workshop for manufacturing makeshift landmines, its owner was at the same time an owner of the business mentioned (he was detained by the General Security Service for investigation). On the roof of the second one some member of the family living there established a sniper's position. A barrel of the machine-gun peeped from the window of the third, and the gunman was an elder son of the owner. None of the houses was abandoned, and it took a big effort to remove inhabitants prior to exploding the houses mentioned (no one was going to kill the families of the sniper and the machine-gunman that were already dead having lost a fire exchange to the IDF). The soldiers, including me, were instructed prior to entering the town to make every effort possible to avoid collateral damage to civilians' lives, health and property. And as far as I can witness, the soldiers tried to follow these instructions when this was possible. But the people living in these houses were not innocent civilians, they were combattants of the enemy (not all of them fighters, but every army has also logistics units). If these people do not know that the only purpose a house can be used for is living there (and not turning it into makeshaft Raytheon Corp. or fortification facility), then they cannot be certified for living in a normal house, and they should live in tents until they learn an operating manual of the normal residential building.
Destruction of the houses and other kinds of collateral damage to civilians may be fully blamed on Palestinian combattants that establish their military facilities in the middle of densely-populated areas. If humanitarian concerns make IDF to avoid raid against militants, this will be humane toward Palestinians and ultimately inhumane toward Israeli citizens that will be killed by terrorists. As an Israeli citizen and a loyal reserve soldier, when I face such a dilemma, I, for obvious reasons, prefer interests of my compatriot civilians to these of the enemy (but neither do I kill the latter just for fun or out of hatred).

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steissd wrote:

OK, Mr. de Kere, you get information from the media sources, and I was a participant of the Defense Shield operation in Nablus in 2002, and I witnessed three demolitions of such a kind.

1) Upon what do you base your assumption?

2) This is a questionable appeal to authority.

3) Ironically, it is an appeal to authority on the basis of anecdotal evidence.

Quote:

Destruction of the houses and other kinds of collateral damage to civilians may be fully blamed on Palestinian combattants that establish their military facilities in the middle of densely-populated areas.

Yes, it "may be" but it also "may be" completely blamed on the IDF. That's how it works when no substantiation is required for broad proclamations.

You have not substantiated, in any way shape or form, your proclamation here.

I'll repeat your claim and allow you another chance to do so:

Quote:

Destruction of the houses and other kinds of collateral damage to civilians may be fully blamed on Palestinian combattants that establish their military facilities in the middle of densely-populated areas.

Upon what do you base this claim? Do you assert that Israel does not destroy homes in which the owners had no complicity in terror? If so, you do so in error. Israel frequently destroys homes whose owners have no complicity in terror.

Quote:

If humanitarian concerns make IDF to avoid raid against militants, this will be humane toward Palestinians and ultimately inhumane toward Israeli citizens that will be killed by terrorists.

False. You leave out other options: bringing more discrimination to IDF procedures and more sanity.

The IDF can achieve their goals without some of the unnecessary provocation and incitement they frequently engage in.

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Israeli Who Revealed Nuclear Secrets Is Freed after 18 years

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