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The Al Jazeera Effect

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 01:52 pm
Ok, so who is "we"?

When did "we" "invad(ing) the Middle East"?

When did "we" try "carving it up arbitrarily into a jigsaw puzzle"?

How did "we" "exploit(ing) it for oil"?

What hypocrisy?


*edited to make it look more grammatical.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 01:52 pm
Well the history shows that all but three of the terrorists were Saudi Arabians and the other three were from countries we had not 'molested' in any way. In fact we had not long ago saved Saudi Arabia's tush from a threatening Saddam Hussein, at Saudi Arabia's request, and have provided massive aid to the other countries that produced the terrorists.

They were so profoundly grateful, the terrorists decided to destroy as much of America as they could and murder 3000 innocent men, women, and children.

I'm sticking with the helicopters and gunships.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 01:53 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Well we've tried the 'let's all be friends approach' and it got us two twin towers destroyed, four airplanes full of innocent passengers crashed, the Pentagon heavily damaged, and more than 3000 people dead.

I vote for the helicopters and gunship approach.


With the helicopters and gunship approach we have gotten...

...two twin towers destroyed, four airplanes full of innocent passengers crashed, the Pentagon heavily damaged, more than 3700 Americans dead plus thousands of Iraqi's killed, anti-US propaganda in Arabic newspapers, $87 billion dollars in direct expenditures, 135,000 GI's stuck in a war zone, thousands of wounded soldiers, further anger against the US throughout the war, distraction from real threats in North Korea and Iran and

.., a quagmire.

What the helicopter and gunship approach has not given us...

Peace, security, Bin Ladin, weapons of mass destruction or anything resembling democracy in the Middle.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 01:55 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Well the history shows that all but three of the terrorists were Saudi Arabians and the other three were from countries we had not 'molested' in any way. In fact we had not long ago saved Saudi Arabia's tush from a threatening Saddam Hussein, at Saudi Arabia's request, and have provided massive aid to the other countries that produced the terrorists.

They were so profoundly grateful, the terrorists decided to destroy as much of America as they could and murder 3000 innocent men, women, and children.

I'm sticking with the helicopters and gunships.



Note: The Iraqi's never attacked America.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 01:57 pm
Well, there it is in a nutshell.

One side blames THEM, the other side blames US...

Huh.
0 Replies
 
infowarrior
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 02:15 pm
"Well we've tried the 'let's all be friends approach' " foxfrye

ROFL!

I guess this was when Reagan was selling arms to Saddam and Rumsfeld was in one of his palaces enjoying virgins.

Or maybe it was when the USA decided to fight a proxy war against Iran by putting Saddam on the payroll.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 02:46 pm
ebrown writes:
Quote:
Note: The Iraqi's never attacked America.


We never attacked the people who attacked us on 9/11.

Do you think we should sit back and wait for another 9/11 before taking any further action after Afghanistan? Or should we prosecute the war against terrorism before they can do more damage?

Saddam and his thugs had defied almost every U.N. sanction and decree, had a WMD program whether or not we found WMD, was working on developing nuclear capabilities, and had shot at our planes and helicopters in the no fly zones, were committing unspeakable acts against their own people, and had committed recent acts of aggression against their neighbors. They were the obvious target next after Afghanistan.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 03:03 pm
Before I begin, let me point out - because apparently you didn't "get it" - that my post was an inflammatory parallel parody of Foxfyre' post.

Nevertheless:

McGentrix wrote:
Ok, so who is "we"?


In some cases I was referring to the Western world, which is how Arabs percieve the issue. In other cases I was referring to America alone.

In the Western world, people generally see nations as being the primary unit of division in the world. Muslims, however, tend to see a religion subdivided into nations, rather than a nation subdivided into religions.

Before you point out that I should draw a distinction between the two, let me point out that a) Arabs draw no signifigant distinction, and I was speaking from their perspective, b) whether you - in the nationlistic haze that informs so much of your thought - like it or not, the Western world is a meaningful concept. And, yes, France is a part of it.... *gasp*

Quote:
When did "we" "invad(ing) the Middle East"?


World War One.

Quote:
When did "we" try "carving it up arbitrarily into a jigsaw puzzle"?


The period of Anglo-French domination that followed World War One.

Quote:
How did "we" "exploit(ing) it for oil"?


Don't get me wrong - oil is a legitimate pursuit because it is neccessary to keep our economy intact.

But let's not kid ourselves - our pursuit of oil has led to some signifigant and detrimental effects on the Middle East.

The United States is less likely to make enemies of oil rich countries and more willing to appease them, ignore their abusive actions, and support their governments.

For years, America supported Iraqi leader Saddam Hussien even though he engaged in severe human rights abuses and started a war with Iran. This unconditional support can be chalked up primarliy to the fact that Iraq has one of the largest oil reserves in the Middle East.

When Iraq invaded the oil-rich and pro-western country of Kuwait, the Americans finally acted. The Gulf War was motivated, at least in part, by oil concerns. Americans were not seeking access to Kuwaiti oil, as is often contended, rather they were seeking to prevent Saddam Hussien from gaining a disproportionate chunk of the regions oil supplies.

Oil was also one of the main reasons that America propped up the pro-western and unpopular government of the Shah in Iran.

I could go on....

Th point is that pursuing the stability of the Middle Eastern oil market has led the Americans into wars, has caused them to prop up unpopular dictatorships, and has allowed them to turn a blind eye to the human rights abuses in oil rich countries.

Quote:
What hypocrisy?


Few American actions in the Middle East are not hypocritical.

In my opinion - and I have voiced this before - much of this hypocrisy is rooted in American universalism. I'll elucidate, for your benifit.

Universalism and practical interest represent the two opposing poles of our foreign policy. On one hand America desires to elevate its core values of democracy, free markets, limited government, human rights, individualism, and the rule of law into universal values. On the other hand they strive to take actions that are in the best practical interests of America.

The paradox of American power is that these two opposing objectives - universalism and American interests - are in direct conflict with each other. This conflict at the heart of American foreign policy is the reason that the United sates has found itself forced into increasingly awkward, contradictory and blatantly hypocritical positions.

See democracy:

Back in Bush's early days, Richard Haas, the Director of Policy Planning at the US State Department, released a report outlining the government's new strategy in the Middle East. In that report Haas affirms that "US policy will be more actively engaged in supporting democratic trends in the Muslim world than ever before." The Bush administration's enthusiasm for promoting democracy is strange considering that past efforts have met little success and have often ended with Americans going against their democratic ideals to protect American interests.

In 1992 America supported Algeria's attempt to hold its first democratic election. It soon became clear that the FIS, an Islamic Fundamentalist party, were going to win. America quickly reversed its position and supported the current Algerian government in its move to cancel the election, which renewed a bloody civil war that continues to this day. This is a perfect example of how the desire to spread its values is in direct conflict with America's practical interests.

Also, remember July 2001, when president Bush warned Palestinians that voting for Yassir Arafat would jeopardize chances for a future Palestinian state. Once again America ran into conflict between its ideals of democracy and its desire to control politics in the middle east.

In Egypt, the American government has helped president Hosni Mubarak in his attempts to prevent rival political parties, like the Muslim Brotherhood, from running in democratic elections. Despite that this is an obvious violation of democracy the United States is supportive because we want to eliminate the chances of the Muslim Brotherhood getting into power.

All of these actions send the message that America supports democracy in the Middle East, but only if it results in leadership friendly to the US. That is not democracy, though.

And, of course, we are all aware of the situation in Iraq. Once of the central reasons cited for war with Iraq was the need to "liberate" Iraqi's from oppression and give them "democracy." However, it has since become clear that a democratic Iraq will be a non-secular Iraq with strong fundamentalist element. I doubt that a true democracy will materialize.

In Afghanistan, on the other hand, we also wanted to "liberate them from oppression." However, we have not even attempted to give them democracy. Instead, we have opted to let the nation remain in lightly supervised warlordism.

So, clearly thier is overwhelming hypocrisy in our approach to democracy in the Middle East. And that is only one example. I could write a book on the subject of American hypocrisy in the Middle East.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2004 03:08 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
ebrown writes:
Quote:
Note: The Iraqi's never attacked America.


Do you think we should sit back and wait for another 9/11 before taking any further action after Afghanistan? Or should we prosecute the war against terrorism before they can do more damage?


Where you fail is in the assbackwards assumption that invading Iraq, supporting Isreali actions, and all of the other things Bush has done is condusive the ultimate goal of fighting terrorism.

I am a Liberal. I think the War on Terrorism is vitally important. However, I have enough brain cells and perspectrive to realize that Bush is fumbling the war, and that is my main beef with him.

If you could rise above the simplistic "us vs them" philosophy that is the basis of your opinion, you would realize that Bush's actions are only excacerbating the underlying issues that cause terrorism.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2004 06:04 am
ILZ, though I may not agree with what you have said, it was a well reasoned response and I respect that.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2004 07:00 am
I agree with McG on that. There are genuine philosophical differences and these are worthy of debate.
0 Replies
 
NeoGuin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2004 08:59 am
E_Brown:

Fox and MCG would do well to visit http://www.fair.org and see what's behind where they get so much of their "News".

Then go to www.commondreams.org and get the antidote.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2004 09:00 am
The only thing Commondreams is an antidote to, is constipation.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2004 09:16 am
McGentrix wrote:
The only thing Commondreams is an antidote to, is constipation.


Okay, that was almost witty.
0 Replies
 
NeoGuin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Apr, 2004 08:35 pm
Or the c**P CEO's disguise as "News"Smile
0 Replies
 
 

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